I ask this question because I've recently been exposed to a case that reads something like the 'Exorcism of Emily Rose'...if any here are familar with that 'based on a true story' movie...I'm witness to it and many reliable people I know are witness to it and every act is on legal record...I came here tonight wanting to share the story but after I began to write some of it down...I questioned if I should even post it here where it can be read by children...its obscene and horrific and even what I wrote just scratches the surface of this on-going case...some things I could not even bring myself to write...for now, I am refraining from telling any details about the case. I am no stranger to human depravity...I've come into contact with some pretty bad things...I know the human mind can sink to unfathomable depths...but something is different here...with this case. Do you believe that evil can exist as entities and can take control of a person's mind and body?

And, Tutu, I hope, you can walk away and have nothing more to do with the case. I feel in my bones at above average intensity and above average certainty that you ARE dealing with a demonology case.

I would elaborate but not allowed to on this particular forum and I'd really rather not get into such details anyway, if avoidable.

I feel the above

1. on reading your short intro--quickly, instantly, strongly felt so.

2. I know from tons of experience that when evil reaches a certain intensity, flavor, degree, . . . . there is ALWAYS demon involvement. No exception observed in 59 years.

For once, Aslans...I can not proceed with any certainty of belief...for some things that I have witnessed, I can not account for by reason of an ill mind alone...yet, I am certain that I can not walk away.

I have read some on the events of Emily Rose and how she lived her life. She pretty much died of starvation and it could have been saved if they sent her to a hospital where they could force feed...other than that is all I have to say for this. I dont know much about Emily Rose but I do know that 20 years after the incident the Catholic chruch revised the Exersisom procedure. This is definatly worth looking into....but not too far...lol


peace,
Austin

I agree with that Galvacon...the thing about that is...you either believe one side or the other...believe the doctors or believe the priest...reflecting back now, I'm not certain which side to believe...though I was resolute before.

Actually, there has even been some research demonstrating that pastors--even those not specifically trained to do so--can routinely accurately discrimminate between the mentally ill and the demon possessed.

Of course, there are those cases where both occur in the same person.

If you literally cannot walk away from the case for whatever reasons, then I'm enormously concerned for you.

Perhaps I could suggest that you experiment as you might imagine me to. But in such a context, experimentation is foolhardy and likely very dangerous.

In such a context, one needs to have great experience and great authority . . . in the matters involved.

I think I'll stop there.

I think mental illness has always existed throughout human history, but was excused as something demonic when such concepts arose. Lots of people, some of them adults, still believe there is some sort of demonic aspect to mental illness. That's just my simple observation and opinion on this topic.

1. The Doctors have enormous vested interests in refuting the priests.

2. It could be argued that the priests have enormous vested interests in refuting the Docs. But, actually, most priests etc. would MUCH RATHER NEVER HAPPEN ONTO SUCH CASES. They are no picnic!

3. If the priest is duty bound to attempt a useful intervention--then the primary focus, interest, desire of the priest is to win the battle leaving the victim free of external control or external control internalized.

4. BTW, at some point, I don't know that it matters whether one is talking about OPPRESSION vs POSSESSION. But I believe in the case you are talking about that Oppression was left in the dust quite a while ago. Possession would mean that the degree of free will left to the individual was shrinking and had already shrunk markedly.

5. The Docs could easily merely be talking about the external, observable SYMPTOMS of possession while denying any possibility of possession. Therefore, they MUST come up with alternative explanations. Mental illness is a handy out for them. BY DEFINITION--THEY DEFINE the victim as mentally ill because of the behaviors of the victim WITHOUT ANY NECESSARY CONNECTION WITH THE CAUSES of the behaviors. The causes are ASSUMED TO BE STANDARD ROUTINE MENTAL ILLNESS CAUSES

because the Docs will tolerate no other possibilities.

6. I consider that enormously arrogant and in such cases cruel to the victims already treated cruelly by the demonic forces.

7. There are very qualitative differences between an individual claiming to be . . . a purple turnip; Jesus Christ; Beelzebub out of mental illness vs one claiming to be Beelzebub or some such out of demonic possession. There's usually very dramatically different qualitative differences when the demon possession has been extensive in time and degree.

However, many idiot doctors would miss such qualitative differences even when they hit them literally over the head by a piece of the bedstead.

It's extremely difficult to articulate specifically what those qualitative differences are. But it sounds like you know what they are. Certainly a look in the eye can be a big one. The chill one feels down one's spine or the hair raising on one's neck can be another. But also there are differences in voice in tone, inflection, cadence, twists, . . . various things.

Deceptiveness, trickery etc. is also qualitatively different. With the mentally ill--deceptiveness and trickery are usually playful or dunderheaded or both as an irregular mixture.

With possession, deceptiveness and trickery are ruthless, kaniving, steely, cold, mean, cruelly toying, maybe bitter, vengeful, etc.

I hope some of this is of some help to you, Tutu. But I know of only one help in such matters and you can guess about that since I can't discuss that in this section of the forum. Nothing else will bring freedom or help in any LASTING way.

Some games can appear to bring a temporary relief. Often such games only intensify the possession or spread it around a bit to the helpers.

I respect that opinion and I am not at odds with it, Kiku. I think it not only likely but probable that many seriously ill people have went without proper medical treatment due to a label of 'demonic possession' through out history. Yet, it is one thing to present with symptoms of a recognized mental disease such as schizophrenia or disassociative identity disorder...or present with symptoms a recognized neurological condition such as epilepsy or tourette's....and another to present with symptoms not meeting the criteria for specific diagnosis and still claim 'ah, she's a multiple...or he's epileptic'. That is what I find here...that the symptoms do not meet the criteria for any of the above. And then there are the 'extraordinary effects' to contend with.

And Aslans...I've no intention of 'experimenting' as you describe...though I am familar with some rites.

I'd like to say that my involvement in this case, at first merely a professional one, is now only one of sincere compassion...though the person known remains little more than a stranger to me.

Here is one example of what I mean by not meeting the criteria...

there are present, at any given time, various 'personalities'

now this would seem positively indicative of disassociative identity disorder (formerly multiple personality disorder) but a closer inspection of the phenomena will reveal that it is entirely atypical of DID...

with DID, the personalities originate as defensive mechanisms...a splitting of self to protect the self...the true personality...or primary...'goes away' when threatened and the other personalities emerge to deal with the threat or suffer through it...the primary then will have no knowledge of the actions or words of the 'others'

however, in this case...

not only does the primary know of the others but also interacts with them and is tormented by them

This doesnt meet the diagnostic criteria for DID.

This is assuming that all symptoms and mental illnesses are documented and cannot be modified or added on to. The term 'mental illness' is based on the idea that the brain is malfunctioning, and it'd be very incorrect to even think we understand the brain completely, and therefore define each and every emitting illness. Considering each person has a brain different from each and every other person, it would be quite unsurprising if a previously undocumented illness had been found, don't you think? There's nothing demonic about that.

Tutu, I can honestly say 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt from personal experience that evil can take control of both the mind and body of a living person. In most cases I have read, and from my own experience, the person being "possessed" is usually of weak mind. I don't mean they are stupid, but they are emotionally weak, which could stem from a multitude of outside factors. In my aunts case, it wsa years of alcohol/substance abuse coupled with extreme child abuse from her mother when she was growing up (the abuse led to a serious image of low self-esteem)

In my case, it happened to my aunt when I was 14 while she was staying with my family. I had been fairly close to her before the incident but afterwards we began to see less and less of her. I'll tell you the story in hopes that it might help you out.

My family had purchased the house in the summer of 88. The house itself was 17 years old and had been vacant for a number of years. Before we moved in, nobody (caretakers) reported or saw any unusual activity. One thing I found to be very odd when we first moved in, including my parents, was the fact that there were many things still in the house from the previous owners. Not just ordinary things but keepskaes like photographs and small momentos.

As soon as my parents had purchased the house and before we moved in, my parents began renovating the interior of the house. Ripping out the old floorsd and putting in new ones and constructing the entire basement into seperate rooms instead of being just one open space.

About 8 months a living there, my dad had started developing back problems. He was still doing work on the basement but had to limit the amount of hours he could do it due to the pain.

In August of 89, my aunt (dad's sister) had asked if she could stay with us for awhile because she was hsving problems with her boyfriend. They obligingly let her stay. A few days after my aunt moved in, my mom started to hear people talking from the room my aunt was staying in. My mom was a bit upset that my aunt would invite people in so late and then talk so loud like they were having a party.

The following morning, my mom questioned my aunt about the previous evening and who she was talking to. My aunt looked back at her perplexed and responded that there was nobody here and she was sleeping. This went on for a few more days.

My aunt also had a dog that she brought with her and a few days after my mom had heard the conversations, the dog sustained a strange injury. I don't know if it has any true relation to the full incident, but it happened during this whole even so it could have some bearing.

Then came the day of reckoning. I was outside talking with my aunt and then went off to play with my dogs for a moment. My mom was in the kitchen watching us from inside. She saw my aunt talking to an older woman and they looked as if they were fighting. Next thing, my mom sees the older woman step into my aunt. My mom knew right away something bad was about to happen.

I followed what I thought at the moment to be my aunt back into the house and followed her downstairs to where my dad was relaxing watching tv. She began to shout at my dad...
Spirit/aunt: This is my house get out!!
Dad: (he looks back at her perplexed) what are you talking about?
Spirit/aunt: This is my house, get out!! I don't want you here anymore!!
Dad: What are you talking about? This is my house, i bought it.
Spirit/aunt: I don't care!! This is my house and I don't like what you are doing and I want you to leave!!
Dad: Who do you think you are?! I paid for this house, you own nothing!
Spirit/aunt: You know your back pain?! I'm the one who is causing it and if you don't leave I will only make it worse! Now get out!!

They kept going on back and fourth in this same manner. My mom then came down and began saying some buddhist chants and started throwing uncooked rice at my aunt. The effects were the same as you would see in a movie with a priest throwing holy water at a demon. She began to scream in pain. My mom began to throw more rice and the thing inside my aunt began to moan even more in burning pain. Then my aunt was back.

Everything seemed to be okay for the moment and my aunt went to go back upstairs to the room she was staying in (the same room where the voices were heard by my mom). I followed her up to make sure she was okay. I was consoling her along the way and kept telling her everything would be ok. Boy was I wrong.

As soon as we get to the door to the room, she turns to me and raises her hands as if to try and strangle me. I look at her eyes and know full well that who I was looking at was not my aunt. It may have been her body, but the intensity and malice that burned in her eyes belonged to someone else. Luckily I jumped back quickly and my mom had folowed us well and began thrwoing more rice while chanting. The spirit fled again. After that, we (my parents, aunt, and myself) spent the next hour in the kitchen sitting at the table holding hands while my mom chanted.

Thankfully we went through the rest of the evening with no further incident. My aunt stayed in another room with my mom close by just in case.

The next morning, we had monks come over to our house to do a cleansing and blessing to prevent the spirit from entering the house again.

Not too long afterwards we began to do some research about the previous owners, which answered alot of questions. It turns out there were three people who had lived there and they were the only other owners of the house. It was a family of three, a mother and father and they had a son who was fully grown. The father and son had gone out and were killed in a car accident leaving only the mother. The mother had become consumed with grief eventually going mad and finally killing herself in the house. She did this by banging her head severly on the walls and doors in side the house and then finally throwing herself down the stairs where she finally died of blood loss. The place she had hit her head the hardest and where there was the most blood happened to be on the door of the room where my aunt was sleeping.

After that, nothing else involving possession ever happened again. My aunt only returned to the house 2-3 times but very warily. She hasn't been back. Myself, when i was staying in the house, I would occaisionally have nightmares with the spirit telling me that it had returned. To this day the whole experience creeps me out. If I had my way, I would tear the house down.

In my experience, rites, routines, methods etc. are essentially, in and of themselves--TOTALLY USELESS TO DANGEROUS

UNLESS and until

the individual IN CHARGE of the session has

SUFFICIENT PERSONAL ______UAL CLOUT born out of their relationship with ___; and probably in dire cases--sufficient ______ and fasting.

As the forces that tore into the imposter declared:

"___________" I know and Paul I know. Who the blazes are you?"

------------------------------------------------------

I think that you are quite accurate about victims not fitting standard diagnostic criteria. And, that there are often 'other' phenomena that shrinks et al would have no explanation for so would go to great lengths to deny even if they saw such in front of their faces. In such cases, I think of the good docs as idiot jerks.

There ARE cases where diagnostic categories fit AND there is also possession or oppression. Those can be particularly tricky. But usually there will be no progress with the mental illness unless and until the demon possession has been conclusively dealt with or at least silenced and rendered essentially neutralized for a significant period of time to give the victim and helpers time to make progress with the mental illness aspect.

I would even go so far as to assert that there are SOME cases where mental illness criteria are generated almost totally by demonic forces. But I do not believe that's what you are dealing with in the case you are referring to. Such cases can be 'the devil' to diagnose by most mental health practitioners and even a significant percentage of pastors--depending on their denominations and experiences.

Of course. But by the very same token, you must also consider then that any diagnosis of mental illness is an educated guess at best. And if unique differences in brains can negate positive diagnosis then they can also negate any scientific tests done to establish a mental illness. There must be agreed upon conditions and criteria specific to that diagnosis...and if such is not met, then it is certainly wrong to label it as that illness, dont you think?

I much agree. Good observation.

I'd bet you could describe other distinctives that are qualitatively different as well. Some may be subtle yet starkly significant in some aspect.

Busaiku...thanks for your account.

Aslans...I understand your flavor on this and I wont attempt to debate here in this thread..and you might guess that is precisely the reason why I put it in this forum...not necessarly because of you individually, but with the reasonable expectation that many would argue for a particular flavor.

My question here is only one of real evil...as apart from my philosophical take on man's own inner demons...so to speak

I think that the capacity of the medical profession to obsfucate, dissemble, rationalize, deny, ignore, grope vainly for any "natural" explanation etc. when cases don't fit their tidy little boxes . . . is endless . . . as seemingly is their arrogance. They simply refuse to believe that there's ANYTHING which is outside their cosmology/construction on reality.

They could watch any number of 'super strange' manifestations and still deny totally that anything special was going on beyond their tidy little boxes. I have little use for such people--especially when they lead victims down empty rabbit trail after empty rabbit trail at great useless monetary cost and great stress to the victim.

One would think that SOME of them would at least have the integrity and capacity to say: "We don't know what's going on. And we have no solutions." But their egos seem to have such a death-grip strangle hold on their genitals that they never will cop to the truth--seemingly under great fear of being castrated and Bobbitized. And now I note I'm off and running on a pet tirade so I'll shut up again . . . for the moment . . . LOL.

Welllll, maybe another comment, for now.

I have known of a FEW such people to have subsequently experienced in their own nuclear family or personal lives or extended family or personal case load some experiences that simply will not fit in their tidy little boxes regardless of how big their shoehorns. If such maninfestations are serious enough, they may come crawling back with their tails between their legs begging for help and relief.

Their new humility comes at great cost. But that's better than not coming at all.

I can understand that. LOL.

So, have my comments been useless to you?

Yes. There is no 'blocking out' of one while another is present...more than two distinct voices can be heard speaking at the same time..as well as other 'odd' sounds coming from the room where the individual is confined...I dont think that there is any known or unknown mental illness which can accomplish that..and so I am at a loss for a rational explanation