I don't want to argue the point of Guantanamo's existence - been there done that in countless threads - what I do want to do is address the complete lack of reality, the complete lack of sympathy and humanitarianism issuing forth from the American Miitary and Govt in relation to three suicides at Guantanamo - It is a stark Big Brother approach even Orwell would have found astonishing....

So three Muslims hang themselves and the camp Commander describes it not as an act of desperation but an act of 'Warfare' - PERVERSE IN THE EXTREME!!!

So what happens next? Ms Graffy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for PUBLIC DIPLOMACY says it was 'Good PR' That's why they did it then? Coz it was good PR? - Words fail me......

Ben

They've had countless attempted suicides. Amnesty International says it's been reclassified as "manipulative self injurious acts" (or something like that, I'm going from memory.)

Everything about GitMo is an Orwellian nightmare.

Why did Islamic extremists pilot two jet liners into skyscrapers, knowing their death was immenient? Why do pregnant women blow themselves up in crowded squares? Would a devout Muslim commit suicide out of desperation? Not a devout Muslim. Would a devout Muslim hang himself to draw attention to the plight of Muslims and Islam? Most certainly.

So the torture has nothing to possibly do with it?

Perhaps, Kelly. But I cant see the Islamic world missing an opportunity to benefit from it...the suicides, I mean.

That's the complete, utter and total ignorance of suicide I refer to - look somewhere else to apportion blame - has it even crossed your mind that they may indeed have been 'desperate' - has it crossed your mind that they have been locked up for three years with NO CHARGES brought against them -has it crossed your mind that they have been interrogated, sleep deprived and chained? Has it crossed your mind that had they wanted to commit an act of warfare or make 'Good PR' the best way to do it would have been to take an American with them or go out trying? NO NO and NO again - Now why would that be?

Ben

Edited to add -

That's the complete perversion I speak of - you argue a case about 'Devout Muslims' (Ie fundies) committing suicide - do you know that they were? The perverse logic runs that because they are in Gitmo they must be!!!! It STINKS!!

Well, can you blame them?
I'm pissed off at Islam, too, but we must admit our portion of the guilt in this whole thing.
And GitMo is very, very bad.

Many things have crossed my mind, Ben. I'm not apportioning any blame. Muslims are willing to die for their faith and by their own hand if necessary. If one is willing to die to get the world to really see what the fuck is going on down in Gitmo...I have no doubt that one would do it. Has it crossed your mind that their suicide was an act of desperation of a different kind?

It's a disgrace to the so called 'civilised world' and will be used as a metaphor for shame and guilt for centuries to come.

Ben

I'm not aware of any other kind...I've never known a Muslim to not be devout in his faith. And I say that with admiration.

If they've been there for years now, they are probably stark raving mad by this point.
There's really no telling what they were thinking.

What is a disgrace?

Sorry you might have missed my edit Tutu - I'm gobsmacked that within a couple of hours of these men hanging themselves the Camp Commander and Your Asst Secretary can have it 'all wrapped up' and explained neatly and to the USA's benefit - No, no enquiry necessary, it's all easily explained - this is on a par with Nazi Death Camps for some individuals and the world stands idly by and lets America get away with it - IT IS SHAMEFUL!!!!

Ben

Gitmo (I know I said I didn't wanna argue about it but it seems somehow inevitable)

Ben

Then you haven't met enough of them Tutu - they are no different from Christians in that there are degrees of 'belief' and of course how it is practised. I suggest a trip to any of the 'Asian' or ex-Soviet nations would amply describe what I mean - Malaysian Muslims - Indonesian Muslims - Serbian Muslims, Iraqi Muslims and so on and so forth all practise a varying and widespread level of belief.

Ben

I dont know why they did what they did...and I'm sure that the A.S. does not know why either...but I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt...I would like to say that their death was honorable...that they died for a cause...to bring the critical eyes of the world bearing down on the concrete walls of Gitmo. Now if saying that is shameful..well, I'm sorry but these devout Muslims were never tried, never proven guilty and are innocent until...therefore, I would not bring upon them or their families the dishonor that suicide brings..I would rather say...."your son...your husband...your father...your brother...sacrificed himself to save others...he died an honorable death."

Or maybe they just psychologically broke and had to escape in the only way they could.
What's remarkable is that they were able to find a way. I was under the impression that Gitmo was fairly "suicide proof".

Well, it's the crux of the issue. The suicides are just an extention of the whole problem.

There's always a way, Kelly. I've worked corrections and I know. Maybe they did just break down...being caged up does something to a person's mind...doesnt matter how tough they are coming in...or how passive...in the end..the walls win. Again, I cant say...all that I am saying is that is it not better to say that these men died for a cause?

I didnt think it possible to be a non-devout Muslim...for isnt 'submission to Allah' the whole defining attribute of a Muslim? I dont know, Ben...it seems to me that you think I'm being disrespectful when, in fact, I'm not.