Hi to All..
Due to resent debates with skeptics on the subject of the paranormal, its got me thinking of science and prove and creditblity!!
The Skeptics argument is that if things are not proven by scienctific terms they don't exists! Which is fair enough to a certain extent.. but where do we draw the line?

For eg, you can not prove in scienctific terms how much you love your partner or mother or father or dogs or cats etc etc..!

But yet this love does exists! so if we apply this concept to the paranormal or the unknow laws of physics, that science has yet to discover, there will never be no prove...


I also am very confused when skeptics claim they need prove for something to exisit (lab conditions with regorous testing) thats fair enough, if it will reveal the truth, but will it and will it ever be enough to convice the skeptical mind..

I myself am skeptical (I think everyone is to an extent) we have got to be, to rule out obvious things before we shout GHOST!!!!! but the skeptics (I feel don't give us credit of this) which is a shame for the research...


Science can also be very contradictory, in ways like medince, for eg I will use Bipolar and Schizophrener as my statement...

There is no know cause for the condition, it been tried and tested in strict lab conditions, on brain chemistry, still to come up with no answers as to how? Or what? cause this dreafull condition...
But yet Bipolar and Schizophrener are reconized forms of illness in their own right..!
so the science communtity has accepted that it exists, but with no prove to back it up... they have theorys!! That it could be chemical imbalance in the brain ? Could be social up bringing? but thats all..

So where do we draw the line with all this or do you all think I am rattling on?
I would much appriecate to hear
take care, Lance..

From my standpoint, skeptics dont always need scientific proof. This is taking it to the extreme. I think what we want is just basic proof. In your example, one could reason that you love your family by how you treat them and how you act when you are around them, over a period of time. This would be proof that you care deeply, or love your family. To take your word for it would be a completely different matter. If you tell me you love your family - how do I know? If you show me that you love your family through actions and those actions are consistent, then that is proof. So, in terms of ufology, or more specific, the existence of aliens, people can "talk" about their abductions and sightings all they want, but there has never been substantial proof that any of this happened, and if it did, that it was tied to alien activity. So, if we could witness abductions and alien activity over time as a collective whole and the activity was consistent (different than stories being consistent), that would be proof enough for most skeptics.

I agree. I'd be a lot more convinced if someone was able to prodice a ghost in a lab or capture an alien or something, but I don't need 100% indisputable scientific proof. I believe in a lot of scientific theories - like evolution, for instance - that can't be 100% proven. Theories like that just have a strong, solid history of offering up convincing evidence (not proof, but evidence). Right now, the evidence that is available largely amounts to hearsay. I believe there probably is something behind the hearsay, but I don't have enough information at my disposal to make an educated guess at what that something may be. I am open to the possibility of the existence paranormal, but pretty unsure about what the paranormal is. That's why I read forums like these - to get an idea for the kind of evidence that exists so that I can come to my own conclusion. :-)

anyone doesnt believe in ghosts, ill send you over to my friends place that he rents out on long island. you wont be a sceptic for long. i truly believe that if it can be thought up it was,is,or will be real. if you believe in quantum SCIENCE everything in the world is connected. since we have over the past few 1000 years created our very own disconnected model of the world, we see suppressed information, cover ups and agendas for personal gain of profit and power that would probably blow the tops off of most peoples heads and make their whole world fall apart due to themselves BECOMING their belief system(mostly what is fed to them). All scientist are incorporating quantum phisics into old linear science but THEY havnt changed the text books yet for students because they havnt figured out a way to incorporate it into mainstream without breaking down old theories. THEY are not publishing the fact that old cities have been found deep below the sea intact that were once big cities on big continents (has been found www.thehorizonproject.com) . that would wipe out the theory of us being apes.
to me a sceptic is someone that didnt do their homework or fell victim to the disconected model that we have created and is now coming apart....

So what about folks like me? I believe - but I don't believe 99.9% of the crap that masquerades as 'Ufo/Alien' encounters or ghost stories.....

As for breaking down old theories? What old theories? Very little of what is kicking around today at the theoretical level was around 100 years ago? We've broken it all down in the past and we'll do it again....they are called paradigm shifts and we have them all the time.....

Ben

very good points.
for one- as far as old theories go - evolution- not a very old one and we are starting to break it down but look at how many crazy undermining belief systems were built up around that theory. but your right we are shifting and its exciting.
ufos are real and ghosts are real and there are fakes. most of the fakes are created to debunk the truth and create confusion so no one can figure out what is real. keep everyone in the dark. same thing happened with 911. once people started questioning the official story someone put out this fabricated conspiracy about a missile hitting the pentagon to debunk all other theories and lable any truth seeker "crazy".smoke and mirrors- focus on the pentagon and keep the attention off WTC7
dont focus on the fakes. know what is real and dont let anything else confuse you.

LOL Whooooaaaaah.....evolution? Breaking it down? Evolution is as solid as the rock we stand on? I don't get it? It's not only a 'fact' but it's demonstrable fact?

As for 9/11 yeah well when the dust settled there were a few questions needed answered but the shit only hit the fan when someone decided to reclassify a fictional movie as a factual movie.....that was more than a loose change if you ask me - that was one shrewd career move.....

Ben

[QUOTE=Ben;307058]LOL Whooooaaaaah.....evolution? Breaking it down? Evolution is as solid as the rock we stand on? I don't get it? It's not only a 'fact' but it's demonstrable fact?

As for 9/11 yeah well when the dust settled there were a few questions needed answered but the shit only hit the fan when someone decided to reclassify a fictional movie as a factual movie.....that was more than a loose change if you ask me - that was one shrewd career move..

i am talking about the theory of evolution. you know the one where they say we came the ape. if you think we came from the ape, well i dont really want to argue points about that one but youll see one day that we didnt come from apes.
911- the shit needed and needs to hit the fan. we were lied to. its a bs story and anyone that does a little homework and adds 2 and 2 together realizes its a bs story.

[QUOTE=BlueSword;307062][QUOTE=Ben;307058]

i am talking about the theory of evolution. you know the one where they say we came the ape. if you think we came from the ape, well i dont really want to argue points about that one but youll see one day that we didnt come from apes.
911- the shit needed and needs to hit the fan. we were lied to. its a bs story and anyone that does a little homework and adds 2 and 2 together realizes its a bs story.[/QUOTE]

Ah ok - the scientists got it wrong then? The complete paleontological history of the transformation of animals and humans in particular is all just 'phoney?' It's invented? And when we watch them evolve today we're just 'imagining it'?

Ok if you don't wanna talk about it fair enough.....I would argue that silence speaks volumes though?

Ben

[QUOTE=Ben;307064][QUOTE=BlueSword;307062]

Ah ok - the scientists got it wrong then? The complete paleontological history of the transformation of animals and humans in particular is all just 'phoney?' It's invented? And when we watch them evolve today we're just 'imagining it'?

Ok if you don't wanna talk about it fair enough.....I would argue that silence speaks volumes though?

Ben[/QUOTE]

ok, ok , its just a small piece of the puzzle. i get it your a sceptic, hard evidence guy, need to see it to believe it. all im saying is there is a lot more than what we are seeing or being alowed to see. its unfortunate that we have created this scam/hoax society. so many people have done amazing things yet people still wont believe. the first step in achiving is believing

[QUOTE=BlueSword;307065][QUOTE=Ben;307064]

ok, ok , its just a small piece of the puzzle. i get it your a sceptic, hard evidence guy, need to see it to believe it. all im saying is there is a lot more than what we are seeing or being alowed to see. its unfortunate that we have created this scam/hoax society. so many people have done amazing things yet people still wont believe. the first step in achiving is believing[/QUOTE]

Nope you got that all wrong too - Hmmm why is everyone rushing to 'pre-judge?' - I aint no skeptic but it seems in this day and age if you don't believe that the intergalactic confederation can jump through worm holes whilst being hounded by Reptilians who are out to destroy indigo children before the great revelation of our origins can be made and Tesla is vindicated by our fantastic weaponry which saves the day by destroying them pesky triangles then your labelled a skeptic???

I repeat - I believe - but I don't believe nonsense.

Ben

Entrust those seeking truth; doubt he who finds it

[QUOTE=Ben;307067][QUOTE=BlueSword;307065]

Nope you got that all wrong too - Hmmm why is everyone rushing to 'pre-judge?' - I aint no skeptic but it seems in this day and age if you don't believe that the intergalactic confederation can jump through worm holes whilst being hounded by Reptilians who are out to destroy indigo children before the great revelation of our origins can be made and Tesla is vindicated by our fantastic weaponry which saves the day by destroying them pesky triangles then your labelled a skeptic???

I repeat - I believe - but I don't believe nonsense.

Ben[/QUOTE]


gotcha, and you are right. there is a lot of nonsense out their but usually there is at least some truth behind the nonsense. for instance, Icke might have elaborated or theorized that some ruling figures are reptilians themselves when it could just be that they play a part in pulling some strings. i have seen a REAL photo of one of those critters taken by a very close credible friend, that had one of them attend a seminar my friend was holding in england. he never went public with his evidence.

[QUOTE=BlueSword;307077][QUOTE=Ben;307067]


gotcha, and you are right. there is a lot of nonsense out their but usually there is at least some truth behind the nonsense. for instance, Icke might have elaborated or theorized that some ruling figures are reptilians themselves when it could just be that they play a part in pulling some strings. i have seen a REAL photo of one of those critters taken by a very close credible friend, that had one of them attend a seminar my friend was holding in england. he never went public with his evidence.[/QUOTE]

Sigh....gotcha....reptilians....Icke....photograph....credible friend....

Dog - you got sticks of dynamite thin enough to poke in my ears?

Ben

[QUOTE=Ben;307097][QUOTE=BlueSword;307077]

Sigh....gotcha....reptilians....Icke....photograph....credible friend....

Dog - you got sticks of dynamite thin enough to poke in my ears?

Ben[/QUOTE]

Ben, are you saying you dont believe me about the photo? that is unfortunate. i have no reason to lie about anything. the word lie is not in my vocabulary. and dont say, well you just said it. every word i say in here is MOSTLY from my experience. i dont want to judge you but it sounds like you are not that open to having out of the ordinary experiences. i could be wrong.
you probably wont believe me if i told you that one day my twin bro woke up and found an extra 50k in his account. no those things cant happen right and if it does its just coincidence or luck. all my life i have been open to new ideas, experiences and so on and that is what life has given to me. i have also met with truely genuine like minded individuals who have shared with me their amazing experiences and unconventional life.
so you have given remarks to just about everyone of my posts and mostly discrediting my own experiences. ask yourself, what is it your looking for? am i just looking for someone to listen to my stories and are you just looking for someone to prove their stories true to you? is it possible. there will always be a paradox. All the wise people throughout the ages said " you have to believe to see" not the other way around..

someone just sent me a link to a really cool card trick
it has nothing to do with the paranormal but its really cool. http://www.glumbert.com/media/cyril

[QUOTE=BlueSword;307150][QUOTE=Ben;307097]

Ben, are you saying you dont believe me about the photo? that is unfortunate. i have no reason to lie about anything. the word lie is not in my vocabulary. and dont say, well you just said it. every word i say in here is MOSTLY from my experience. i dont want to judge you but it sounds like you are not that open to having out of the ordinary experiences. i could be wrong.
you probably wont believe me if i told you that one day my twin bro woke up and found an extra 50k in his account. no those things cant happen right and if it does its just coincidence or luck. all my life i have been open to new ideas, experiences and so on and that is what life has given to me. i have also met with truely genuine like minded individuals who have shared with me their amazing experiences and unconventional life.
so you have given remarks to just about everyone of my posts and mostly discrediting my own experiences. ask yourself, what is it your looking for? am i just looking for someone to listen to my stories and are you just looking for someone to prove their stories true to you? is it possible. there will always be a paradox. All the wise people throughout the ages said " you have to believe to see" not the other way around..

someone just sent me a link to a really cool card trick
it has nothing to do with the paranormal but its really cool. http://www.glumbert.com/media/cyril[/QUOTE]

Why do you keep pre-judging what it is other people think and believe? Did I say it had anything to with the photograph? You may well have a photograph - but that had nothing to do with my repsonse - No ALL the wise people through the ages said no such thing as 'You have to believe to see' where did you get that dross from? That's rhetoric and you're gonna have to come up with significantly more than that to convince anyone here of anything -

Now that you ask - yeah 50k in a bank account can be accidental or coincidence - but it can also be traced - so?

Just lately there have been four or five posters registered who are posting quite simply the most unsubstantiable new age psycho babble - it's depressing. Maybe you just got caught up in the crossfire but I will say something out loud - THERE ARE NO REPTILIANS HERE ON EARTH - DAVID ICKE KNOWS NOT OF WHAT HE SPEAKS - Know David Icke, know where the idea came from.....

Ben

[QUOTE=Ben;307154][QUOTE=BlueSword;307150]

Why do you keep pre-judging what it is other people think and believe? Did I say it had anything to with the photograph? You may well have a photograph - but that had nothing to do with my repsonse - No ALL the wise people through the ages said no such thing as 'You have to believe to see' where did you get that dross from? That's rhetoric and you're gonna have to come up with significantly more than that to convince anyone here of anything -

Now that you ask - yeah 50k in a bank account can be accidental or coincidence - but it can also be traced - so?

Just lately there have been four or five posters registered who are posting quite simply the most unsubstantiable new age psycho babble - it's depressing. Maybe you just got caught up in the crossfire but I will say something out loud - THERE ARE NO REPTILIANS HERE ON EARTH - DAVID ICKE KNOWS NOT OF WHAT HE SPEAKS - Know David Icke, know where the idea came from.....

Ben[/QUOTE]

Ben, how can you be so sure there are no reptilians here? are you that positive? it sure does sound like it in your post. i know what i saw in the photo and i know the photo was real. maybe your right. maybe it was a grey that had reptile features. or maybe it was just an ordinary man but the camera was able to pick up on his new styley reptile eye contacts TM. and his really bad case of psoriasis. after the seminar i sent him a skin salve that i made myself out of petchuli and comfrey which i blessed while dancing around a fire on a beach in maui. i got a call a week later from him and he told me the salve had helped his scalely skin condition inprove drasticly. i knew the prayer around the fire did the trick. we had some small talk, then he told me he would be at his summer home for the next month or so in Telos. i couldnt believe it ( i was almost skeptical) i was going to be in the area saving one of the redwoods. it was so good to see my old friend:surrender

Oh I'm sure....I'm sure. There are no reptilians....as for greys read the first dozen or so posts here - http://www.alien-ufos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14090

We are no further forward in determining 'who' is out there than we were in biblical times - fast forward to Betty and Barney Hill and we're still none the wiser - what has happened is an explosion of commercialism and New age crap in this whole field. Commodification of the cult and the 'idea' - it's a marketers dream - think about it - think how exploited financially mainstream religion is and has been down through the centuries....belief in 'them' is no different - there will never be any shortage of people willing to sell you the idea in one form or another - sad thing is...people buy it and so it re-inforces the whole damn edifice of lies....

Yes there's somethng out there - what it is we don't know - when it is we don't know, what it wants we don't know, why it's here we don't know - but you'll find no shortage of 'experiencers' and 'experts' trying to tell you otherwise - small men looking to make big money usually more so because they have nothing to sell but an idea - now that represents good capitalism...almost too good to be true....ah but of course.....

Ben

To Lance,

The truth is without mercy. It does not need to be proven to exist. But establishing what that is, is a problem. By it's very nature, for two people to agree, they must perceive something similar and tell each other of it.

There is a wild flaw, if one guy can't or won't see something he may not agree. So what is generally "real" is based on enough people perceiving the same thing to get this agreement. Have you ever asked what people think about supernatural things? The opinion is all over the place. Thus it is not "real". How about aliens?

People feel love, they see it in others. Others see "love" and thus agree. Thus it is real. But what is love? That has been a joke of TV shows and movies for some time.

Aliens, God, Spirits and plenty of other things are not perceivable by all. Not enough agreement from people = something does not exist by popular agreement. For god to "exist" he must be perceivable by enough to get agreement. Mind you, this is all beside the point of if something is truly real.

Precisely - good post. It's what Baudrilliard calls 'Hyperreality' - the Sociology of mediation teases out precisely what you are discussing Scottman.

In today's fragmented post modern society we can no longer presume that when we 'discuss' something with another that we are talking about the same thing....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Baudrillard

Ben