Im going to state it plane and simple, in my opinion UFO fanatics border on religious delusion. No belief is beyond criticism and questioning yet skeptics on this forum are effectively castrated for fear of being banned by moderators who cant accept serious skeptical criticism. If you want to debate about UFO's then lets debate but not with my hands tied behind my back. The onus falls on the believers to prove their beliefs to the skeptics, not the other way round. The one making the fantastical claims has to justify them, not the one seeking the simplest most likely sollution. I cannot prove a negative, i cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that UFO's do not exist just as nobody can prove that i don't have an invisible car. So ill state once again, it is the responsibility of the believers to come up with the evidence.

Generally speaking i think conspiracy theorists have a tendancy to believe lots of conspiracies, i have rarely talked with a conspiracy theorist who accepted one conspiracy but rejected many others. When i talk to people they either tend to believe no conspiracies, or they believe many conspiracies, i.e they'll believe in UFO adbuctions, they'll believe the moon landings were faked, they'll believe September 11th was an inside job, they'll believe in the Illuminati and they'll hold all these beliefs simultaniously.

Im not saying thats the case for everybody here, but im betting the majority of UFO believers believe in either more than one or many conspiracies. This for me highlights a lack of critical thinking in many, but not all UFO believers. Occams Razor, a principle invented by a 14th century monk that is still used widely by scientists today, states that when searching for the explanation of any phenomenon we should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no observable difference to the predictions of a hypothesis or theory. All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one. In my experience UFO believers and conspiracy theorists tend to do the opposite, they go for the most wild and wacky solution.

In other words if believers want to be taken seriously then they have to deal in facts not speculation, when someone goes on youtube claiming to be part of a government alien cover-up instead of believing him outright they need to critically analyse this man, what are his motives, can anything he is saying be established etc... Taking someones word at something does not count as evidence for your case, if everyone took peoples word on everything we'd all be scared of having our pictures taken incase the camera stole our souls, we'd all be scared of walking under ladders, believing in faeries and unicorns etc.

If believers want to be taken seriously and stop being thought of as deluded fantasists then they need to provide critical, unbiased evidence for the existence of UFO's and whats more they need to accept criticism of their beliefs. I can literally not sit here and not critisize people who have dreams about aliens and take it as evidence. If UFO fanatics are so confident in their beliefs than stand up and defend them.

The subject of ufos and such is like religion and politics. No one is going to agree. My beliefs are mine alone and I feel I have no need to prove or not prove them. The proof is not going to be in black and white , but at the same time I feel there is enough proof for me to stand on my belief that they exist. Thru the ages aliens and ufos have been shown to exist thru paintings, written accounts, the bible, pictures on rocks and in caves and etc.. I cant say what has been found so far is aliens or ufos , but I do believe that is what the past humans were trying to say , to let us know what they saw or experieced. So, even tho I cant prove there existance, skeptics cannot prove they dont exist. That in my opinion leaves both sides at a stand still. The search for truth will continue .

Skep, I hear what you're saying, and there are things I agree with (some people are very sensitive to skepticism), but I really don't think things are so rigid here.

I've had some great discussions with Ben about UFOs and about proof. His entire thread "When the light appears" is all about skepticism.

http://www.alien-ufos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14090

There are now 359 posts on that thread alone.

Reading through any number of threads, I've found many people who are interested in discussion, many people who are skeptical, many people (including myself) who say that a particular video is a hoax or who ask for proof of alien phenomena.

I know I've never had any mod threaten to ban me (Kirin-Rex is a recent name. I've been here a while longer than the name ... edit that ... I just realized I posted under the old name mr-e ... computer trouble caused me to switch browsers recently and the old cookies still had me logged under the old name ... sorry).

I've also had a number of people who have told me that they have witnessed UFO phenomena, and even one or two who've told me that they've been abducted. I think they've treated me with respect, and have debated issues intelligently with me, even when we don't agree about a particular issue.

I think the point is that we ALL try to keep open minds, and try to respect one another, even when we disagree. Let's face it: skeptics are an important part of the community. If there ARE UFOs, then maybe we skeptics who are always crying out for 'proof' will eventually inspire somebody to give us irrefutable proof. If there AREN'T UFOs, the maybe the skeptics can help prove it by continuing to point out hoaxes and fallacies.

The only thing I'd like to suggest to everyone is something that is really simple:

Believers, even if it's difficult, or even if it doesn't seem to make sense right now, please try to be open to the possibility that there could be an explanation for alien phenomena aside from the obvious.

Nonbelievers, even if it's difficult, or even if it doesn't seem to make sense right now, please try to be open to the possibility that alien phenomena is exactly what it purports to be.

The former asserts that science can teach us about perception and belief, and why subjective perception of reality by a minority of individuals can be different than the subjective perception of realtiy by the statistical majority of individuals.

The latter asserts that there are things that are outside our current understanding of science.

Either way, I look forward to anything you have to contribute.

Thank you... so much... for posting this. I know how you feel sometimes.

Come on Skept! You sound like the 'Witch hunter General Hawkins..What exists, exists! People do have experiences in these alien contacts and many are professional people as well, not only people like myself. Lot of the encounters are not dreams. One has to take in all the evidence and until you have an encounter which ought to be interesting for all of us, just take all with an open mind.

Yah I believe in nature fairies too and next week off camping to be with them once more and these massive golden fairy spheres are not no fireflies as have a skeptic friend who saw them too.

Right now a chap who is giving out information on the 911 conspiracy was ruffed up by police and then charged a bogus charge, never showed at court and now on the run.. Something is screwy with the 911.

In all things also the unknown X factor must be remembered or the whole scientific process is invalid! Too much of the so called skeptic is being used to blanket what people really have experienced or cover up the revisionist view of history and our true socialology.

The are also those who are very skeptical about skeptics!:lightsabr

Scep-Many UFOs are captured,plotted and correlated on ground radar,air radar and sonar travelling fantastic speeds,executing right angle turns/immediate stops and generaly displaying completely unprecedented aerial manouverability and flight characteristics(that seem to defy the known laws of aeronautics).
There is also a wealth of highly credible circumstantial evidence from academics,politicians,high ranking military/defense/NASA and a great deal of documentary evidence in the form of 1000s of declassified government UFO documents from many countries.
Many people are not aware of the sheer amount of credible evidence as they suffer from a kind of wilfull ignorance and lazy prejudice about the subject.
As for 'UFO debunkers' they often blatantly ignore scientific evidence(radar /sonar),glaring contadictions and witness testimony and are perhaps more concerned with shoehorning in their own 'preconceptions' onto events rather than a sincere,impartial regard for answers.
Many also suffer an almost hysterical cynicism and possess little or no objectivity.
Maybe It is the 'debunkers' who have a lot of explaining to do as they maintain this is a non subject yet utterly fail to explain inexplicable UFO events.
Of course there is a lunatic fringe on both sides of this argument but I think debunking may have more in common with religion as many debunkers have an almost desperate need for their preconceived ideas to be true and will ignore scientific evidence to foster them(no offence to any religious folk).
Cheers Karl

Good post.

There certainly are lunatics on both sides of the argument. Skepticism is obviously the best position for a person, as it is completely objective. Some people deny that there is anything strange, while it is clear that there are a few cases of strange occurences in regards to UFOs. For example, things like the Belgian Flap and Phoenix Lights deserve special attention.

Then there's the other side of the scale who learn about the UFO phenomena and make an automatic assumption that they are aliens from another planet coming to show off their high-tech toys. Seeing as how there is very little that is actually known about these objects, they then accuse the government of "hiding" information which doesn't fit with their little fantasies about UFOs. These original conspiracies are then built apon by the addition of new conspiracy theories which fit with the old ones, and even more ridiculous claims are made.

As I said, there are some strange occurences throughout the world, but we must approach them objectively and find the most possible answer. I would say that 99% of UFOs are easily explainable (or are hoaxes), but the other 1% requires special examination. There are also crop circles, which are a truly magnificent sight to behold, but we must be careful to brand them with unsupported claims of little green men in flying saucers having fun by scorching a person's crops. There are many, many, other possibilities...

"There certainly are lunatics on both sides of the argument. Skepticism is obviously the best position for a person, as it is completely objective".



Thanks for the reply,although a great many 'sceptics' could do with looking the word 'objective' up in the dictionary as well.
Interestingly both dr J Allen Hyneck(PhD) and Nick Pope were both admitted UFO sceptics before investigating the subject for their respective governments.
Both (and many other) scientists stated that after years of dispassionately and objectively examining evidence they felt the need to completely reverse their position on UFOs and state the subject is a real one.



" I would say that 99% of UFOs are easily explainable (or are hoaxes), but the other 1% requires special examination. "



The MOD concedes that up to 80-90% of UFO sightings can be attributed to misidents yet there is such a huge volume of reports that the section under 'inexplicable aerial phenomena' is still huge.
It also speculated that many people do not report UFOs due to fear of ridicule.
Also, the above Ministry of defense statisics do NOT include reports from The RAF,MOD,NATO,NORAD,astronomers and civilian pilots -these reports are completely omitted from official figures and are considerable in number.
According to a report by the United Nations,since 1947 more than 150 million people have been witnessed to UFO sightings throughout the world,more than 20,000 of these have been documented landings (so it certainly does pay to be objective).
Cheers Karl

Well it also is just as bad for the poeple how state that UFOs are fake without doing any research or having any prove to back up the statement.

If you are on either side you should do good research and post evidence to support your side.

As far as UFOs, the biggest evidence that do excist is the amount of time, money, and research done by the governemnts and the military.

Hers is just 1 report about different governments doing UFO research. I have more.

Document ID: CEP20050112000287
Content Type: Translation/Transcription
Version Number: 01

Region: Eurasia, Middle East
Sub-Region: Russia, Middle East
Country: Russia, Iran
Topic: INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL, ENERGY, MILITARY, PROLIFERATION
Source-Date: 01/12/2005

Iran, Russia Sign Agreement on UFO's After Sightings Near Nuclear Plants
CEP20050112000287 Moscow Rossiyskaya Gazeta in Russian 12 Jan 05 p 5
Reference:
Iran Reports US Aircraft Over Nuke Sites; Orders Downing of US, Israeli Planes GMP20050104000136 Jerusalem Middle East Newsline E-mail-Text English 0000 GMT 04 Jan 05
Iranian Daily Reports Increase in UFO Sightings Over Bushehr, Natanz IAP20041227000066 Tehran E'temad (Internet Version - WWW) Persian 0000 GMT 25 Dec 04
[Report by Vladimir Bogdanov: "Iran Attacks UFO's" ]

[FBIS Translated Text]


In connection with the increase in the number of sightings of unidentified flying objects (UFO's) in the orient, Moscow and Tehran have come to an agreement about the joint study of the phenomenon of UFO's.

The Iranian news agency IRNA reports that in addition to their agreement on scientific research into UFO's, Russia and Iran are discussing the final details of an agreement on developing the Zohren satellite for Tehran. This plan had been gathering dust on the shelf for several years. Its implementation had been prevented by bureaucratic holdups caused by the departments involved on both sides.

It must be said that the news about the joint study of the mysterious space craft appeared in the midst of a sky-watching mania that has gripped the population of our southern neighbor. Reports have appeared in the local press about the appearance of UFO's near Iran's nuclear facilities. Flights by the unidentified objects have increased in frequency in the country's airspace over the past few weeks. They have been seen over Bushehr and Isfahan. It is in these provinces that the nuclear facilities are located. "We drew up plans to protect our nuclear facilities from any threat," Air Force General Karim Hawami stated. "The Iranian Air Force is on its guard and ready to do its duty." It has already been given the order to shoot down any unidentified or suspicious object that enters Iranian air space.

According to information from the local newspaper, Rezalat, "bright objects" were also seen in the sky near Natanza, where Iran's uranium enrichment plant is situated. One of these objects blew up causing "panic in the region."



[Description of Source: Moscow Rossiyskaya Gazeta in Russian -- Government daily newspaper.]

Thanks, Ultima. I've actually read about that in English language news as well, but it was a long time ago. You could probably google it and get the links.

I think you guys have said it well: There ARE fanatics on both sides.

However, as for objective: only a lamp post is objective. Human beings can ONLY be subjective. Sorry.

Well that was just an introductory 1. I have lots more. I am going to post on the thread i opened.