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Feb 3 2008, 11:37 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 16,827 Joined: 10-April 04 From: USA Member No.: 524 |
A discussion of technology, theory, ideas, etc concerning terraforming our solar system. I don't expect this thread to contain itself to Mars alone as other planets and satellites have been so considered. So...what's you thoughts on it people? Is it the future of humanity? To get the ball rolling....
* Habitable Planet (HP): A world with an environment sufficiently similar to the Earth as to allow comfortable and free human habitation. * Biocompatible Planet (BP): A planet possessing the necessary physical parameters for life to flourish on its surface. If initially lifeless, then such a world could host a biosphere of considerable complexity without the need for terraforming. * Easily Terraformable Planet (ETP): A planet that might be rendered biocompatible, or possibly habitable, and maintained so by modest planetary engineering techniques and with the limited resources of a starship or robot precursor mission. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/ http://www.redcolony.com/ http://www.terraformers.ca/ http://www.hudsonfla.com/spaceviewinner.htm http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/index.html http://www.nexialquest.com/The%20Terraform...of%20Worlds.pdf http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/ |
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Feb 3 2008, 11:37 AM
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Feb 3 2008, 01:19 PM
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#2
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![]() Group: Super Moderators Posts: 4,708 Joined: 10-July 06 From: Wild Rose, Wisconsin Member No.: 4,643 |
Here is an interesting read on Terraforming.
It is about a book, but interesting none the less. Terraforming: Engineering Planetary Environments, by Martyn J. Fogg.
SAE International, Warrendale, PA, 1995. ISBN 1-56091-609-5 Review by Geoffrey A. Landis of the NASA-Lewis Research Center. Terraforming is the concept of altering the environment of a planetary surface to make it suitable for (terrestrial) life. The scientific literature about terraforming tends to be sparse, not to mention scattered over a number of journals and books. This book, by British planetologist Martyn Fogg, is an exhaustive book-length review of the scientific literature on terraforming, written at a level that's accessible to the casual (but scientifically-literate) reader. His references are quite thorough, and he is quite meticulous to credit the originator of each idea he mentions, so if you need more, you know where to go to look it up. It's published, oddly enough, by the Society of Automotive Engineers. Why the SAE? In explanation, Martyn says, SAE considers themselves to be first and foremost an engineering organization, and terraforming--planetary engineering-- is engineering on the largest scale. Martyn Fogg is a regular writer of "science fact" articles for Analog, and the book reads quite smoothly. He starts with a review of the development of terraforming in science fiction, particularly crediting Olaf Stapleton with the first lengthy description of terraforming (Venus, in Last and First Men, 1930), Jack Williamson with coining the term in 1942 ("Collision Orbit", in Astounding Science Fiction), and crediting Heinlein with the first use of terraforming as the background for an entire book, complete with a quantitative discussion of the energy required, in Farmer in the Sky (1950). Note that these beat by over a decade the first scientific discussions of terraforming, Sagan's proposal to terraform Venus in 1961, and the proposals to terraform Mars by Burns and Harwit, and (independently) Sagan, in 1973. From here, he starts out with a review of how the ecology on a planet works, paying particular attention to how carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and energy cycle through the system; emphasizing that we are the beneficiaries of a huge "gratis" energy flow provided by the sun and by the Earth's tectonic activity, that keeps the environmental cycles working and acts as an invisible "subsidy" to the human occupation of the Earth. His next chapter discusses environmental modifications of the Earth, both incidental, and deliberate (i.e., solar shields to counter greenhouse warming.) Finally, 200 pages into the book, he discusses terraforming other planets. He starts with Mars, discussing the early (1973) models of Mars that suggested that, since Mars was once apparently warmer and wetter than it is now, a small "push" in the right direction might "snap" Mars into an alternative, warmer equilibrium due to a runaway greenhouse effect. To his credit, after a long discussion of the possibility of "gentle" terraforming of Mars, he then discusses the very likely case that Mars is not in a such metastable state, and discusses "hard" terraforming, with a wide analysis of techniques such as nuclear mining, cometary impact, importing volatiles from icy moons, and enhancing solar radiation. He closes with an example terraforming scenario using all the tools available. Of particular interest is his analysis of time scales. His terraforming example requires roughly 200 years to reach the stage where simple anaerobic microorganisms and algae can survive, and as much as seven thousand years to completely terraform to a human-breathable atmosphere. A long term project indeed! In the following chapter he discusses the much more difficult problem of terraforming Venus. His discussion of Venus gives an excellent historical background. When Sagan first proposed terraforming Venus by "seeding" algae into the clouds in 1961, Venus was though to be much more Earthlike than it is now known to be. We now know that the temperature of Venus is significantly hotter, the atmospheric pressure tremendously higher, and the chemical environment a lot harsher, than was thought in the pre-Pioneer days. Venus has just too damn much atmosphere. He also points out that, even if it were possible to engineer organisms to sequester the carbon dioxide from the Venus atmosphere, the process would take between eleven thousand and 1.1 million years, depending on how optimistic one is about how efficient photosynthesis could be made to become. Nevertheless, many science journalists (e.g., Adrian Berry) have continued to plug the "easy" terraforming of Venus by "just dropping a handful of algae into the atmosphere", and Fogg rather thoroughly debunks their optimism. Terraforming Venus is hard. His discussion covers most of the possibilities for dealing with atmosphere of Venus, ranging from ablating it away with myriad asteroidal impacts, to freezing it out with solar shields. The penultimate chapter is on fringe concepts and ultimate possibilities. He counts terraforming the moon and the larger satellites of the outer planets under fringe concepts, although in many ways these would be considerably easier than some of the other things he discusses. He then briefly discusses ever further out ideas, including moving planets, turning Jupiter into a star, and even the possibility of moving stars. OK. Now to be critical. The book is billed as the first textbook on the subject of terraforming. I wouldn't call it a textbook; it reviews the subject, but doesn't attempt to teach the reader the techniques of analysis. In other words, having read the book the readers will be familiar with what has been calculated by others, but will not have the calculational tools to analyze terraforming calculations themselves. In particular, I found the discussion of the greenhouse effect, critical to an understanding of methods to warm Mars, to be superficial, barely more thorough than what you might find in the newspaper. There was no description of methods used to calculate the amount of greenhouse warming. A description of the greenhouse effect ought to include spectra, show a formula for integrating over the spectrum to compute total heat balance, and discuss the effect of optical depth. The book does not do this, and in fact never even gives a simplified model to calculate the amount of greenhouse warming. He does, however, include a useful empirical equation (unfortunately applicable only to Mars), to calculate the combined effect of water and CO2 greenhouse effect on overall surface temperature. The book suffers a bit from the fact that the illustrations are a hodgepodge collection of pictures from various articles, with nomenclature and units inconsistent from one to another. He skims over the discussion of nitrogen. He claims that an oxygen atmosphere, even at a few PSI (say, 3 PSI) partial pressure, requires a nitrogen "buffer" to prevent a fire hazard. His single reference for this statement, though, is a rather dubious one. While he does note that this is "a disputed figure," after this one note he takes the requirement for 75% of any atmosphere to be nitrogen as a canonical fact. This is a pity, since it allows him to avoid asking the tricky question of how little atmospheric nitrogen an ecosystem actually requires. Nitrogen is a tough problem for Mars, which is nearly absent of N, as far as we can tell from all the information we have at the present. Fogg postulates huge reserves in the form of of nitrate deposits, but I must point out that there is as yet no real evidence for such deposits, and it is quite possible that nitrogen on Mars is simply not there. He has a chapter on planetary engineering of the Earth, which talks about reversing greenhouse warming by a sun-shield. He doesn't note that reducing sunlight would also reduce photosynthesis, and hence enhance the greenhouse effect. (This could, of course, be ameliorated by a dichroic shield, which selectively passes the wavelengths most useful for photosynthesis). I would have liked the flow better if he had put re-engineering Earth last, with the emphasis that we need to study, understand, and experiment, and make our mistakes on other planets first before embarking to mess with the one we live on. He could have emphasized how we understand greenhouse effect based on our studies of Venus; how the "nuclear winter" scenario was proposed based on studies of the effects of global dust coverage of Mars. A small thing that bothered me was that he doesn't very well distinguish between realistic and far-out ideas. One of the proposals he discusses, for example, was to increase the spin of Venus using three quadrillion objects circulating between Venus and the sun every 2 hours, each traveling at 10% of the speed of light. I would personally have put that into the "fringe concepts" section, myself. However, that's only a minor quibble. Fogg uses the "fringe concepts" pigenhole to discuss the really far-out concepts. Despite my carping on minor details, it's a good book. At forty-nine bucks for a 544 page hardcover, it's a bargain. I highly recommend it. Geoffrey A. Landis Ohio Aerospace Institute at NASA Lewis Research Center http://www.oai.org/SRA/g_landis.html -------------------- QUEST FOR THE REAL TRUTH |
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Feb 3 2008, 02:46 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 16,827 Joined: 10-April 04 From: USA Member No.: 524 |
An excellent read, SD. Personally, I believe that there should be a greater allotment of resources toward terraforming within our own solar system then, say, what is currently put into space exploration.
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Feb 3 2008, 02:58 PM
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![]() Group: Super Moderators Posts: 4,708 Joined: 10-July 06 From: Wild Rose, Wisconsin Member No.: 4,643 |
I very much agree.
I wonder what would be required to terraform our moon. I shall see if I can get a copy of that book. I am hungry to learn more. -------------------- QUEST FOR THE REAL TRUTH |
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Feb 3 2008, 03:22 PM
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#5
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,713 Joined: 16-January 04 Member No.: 205 |
In what form would government take if human civilization extended throughout the solar system? Would we again see the colonies revolt for independence and see history repeated in another meaningless cycle, just on a larger scale of distance? Would we see independent warring planets, human migration problems and a vast disparity in living conditions between worlds?
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Feb 3 2008, 03:57 PM
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![]() Group: Super Moderators Posts: 4,708 Joined: 10-July 06 From: Wild Rose, Wisconsin Member No.: 4,643 |
With any luck, when such a day comes...if it comes,we will have developed enough wisdom to avoid such problems.
-------------------- QUEST FOR THE REAL TRUTH |
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Feb 3 2008, 11:21 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 16,827 Joined: 10-April 04 From: USA Member No.: 524 |
(Andrew;346984) In what form would government take if human civilization extended throughout the solar system? Would we again see the colonies revolt for independence and see history repeated in another meaningless cycle, just on a larger scale of distance? Would we see independent warring planets, human migration problems and a vast disparity in living conditions between worlds?
Very interesting question, Andrew. There is the matter of ethics to address with colonization. I'm inclined to believe that history would repeat on some scale. Given that our social institutions are constructed and governed by human motives and motives by human nature. Its likely that similar conflicts would arise on a grander scale. Yet, hopefully, each successive generation moves further away from our base nature and closer toward being governed by reason and ethical conduct. |
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Feb 4 2008, 12:12 AM
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#8
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![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 964 Joined: 27-January 07 Member No.: 5,475 |
(iwant2believe2;346982) Personally, I believe that there should be a greater allotment of resources toward terraforming within our own solar system then, say, what is currently put into space exploration.
Hell ya! This is totally what we should be working on. |
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Feb 4 2008, 02:35 AM
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![]() Group: Supporters Posts: 1,992 Joined: 17-July 07 From: Perpignan, Toulouse Member No.: 6,074 |
In regard to terraforming, here's some information:
Rigel Woida has been awarded a fellowship to study the use of large aperture, lightweight orbital mirrors for "terraforming" an area of the Martian surface so humans could affordably colonize the Red Planet. NASA Institute Announces 2006-2007 Student Fellow Winners For more about NIAC, including the student proposals. -------------------- Ille potens sui, laetusque deget cui licet in diem dixisse: 'Vixi': cras uel atra nube polum Pater occupato uel sole puro. - Q. Horatius Flaccus
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Feb 4 2008, 02:45 AM
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![]() Group: Supporters Posts: 1,992 Joined: 17-July 07 From: Perpignan, Toulouse Member No.: 6,074 |
Our motivations for terraforming the planets (planetary re-engineering) must be clear.
This is not a solution to the overpopulation problem, for example. Several hundred of thousands people are born every day on Earth. There is certainly no prospect in the immediate future of transhipping hundreds of thousands of people to other planets each day. In its entire history, mankind has managed to launch only about one dozen people to another celestial body. Nor are we likely to see in the immediate future a thriving mining industry in which ores are extracted from another planet and transhipped to Earth: the freightage would be prohibitive. -------------------- Ille potens sui, laetusque deget cui licet in diem dixisse: 'Vixi': cras uel atra nube polum Pater occupato uel sole puro. - Q. Horatius Flaccus
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Feb 4 2008, 06:31 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 16,827 Joined: 10-April 04 From: USA Member No.: 524 |
Seems I read once before that much of the terraforming could be done by robotic technology. Biospheres on the moon too, perhaps. And what about gravity?
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Feb 4 2008, 12:20 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,713 Joined: 16-January 04 Member No.: 205 |
The only known way to create gravity is with masses. Otherwise it can only be simulated by acceleration. The latter option is fairly useless for a whole colony. It is a plausible method for a large space station, though.
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Feb 4 2008, 12:46 PM
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![]() Group: Supporters Posts: 1,992 Joined: 17-July 07 From: Perpignan, Toulouse Member No.: 6,074 |
The Moon and the asteroids are much less hospitable than Mars and Venus.
There are so much less able to retain an atmosphere that the terraforming schemes we have been discussing are inapplicable to them. But even on airless worlds, the establishment of human colonies on their surfaces or even – in the case of small asteroids – in their interiors seems a possible future project for mankind. Such colonies would be much more constrained than those on a re-engineered Mars or Venus, and would require much greater attention to the husbanding of scarce resources. Such colonies would be tenable only if significant natural resources – particularly frozen or chemically-bound water – were to be found. In the case of the lunar surface, the samples returned by the Apollo astronauts showed virtually no such water at all. But it is entirely possible that large stores of water exist in cold, shadowed regions near the lunar Poles or at substantial depths beneath the lunar surface. In 2009, LCROSS will confirm the presence or absence of water ice in a permanently shadowed crater at the lunar South Pole. -------------------- Ille potens sui, laetusque deget cui licet in diem dixisse: 'Vixi': cras uel atra nube polum Pater occupato uel sole puro. - Q. Horatius Flaccus
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Feb 4 2008, 05:14 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 964 Joined: 27-January 07 Member No.: 5,475 |
I have seen some talk of tarraforming by using green house gases to warm the planet.
This may not be an issue but, if they put any atmosphere there it will not be an issue. Granted they may even want an atmosphere with more green house gases to help it with warmth. However talking about global warming of Mars is questionable. Just making it livable will make it warmer so why are they dedicating so much time to the idea that they have to warm it? Even in the the coldest times of the planet it is not so bad that microbial life could not survive. Microbes that could begin churning out simpler gases then oxygen. Nitrogen being one of them. A trick in situations like this is to get simpler and tougher microbes. That way everything form radiation to bitter cold will find it harder to effect them. I could get into more details about good ideas for tarraforming but with all that I have seen, there is no need. Some of these guys have really good ideas. |
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Feb 4 2008, 08:21 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,269 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Gulf Coast Member No.: 4,863 |
There are reports of oxygen rich ‘rock’ deposits on the Moon. The idea is to mine these deposits for their oxygen content in order to provide breathing air for Humans, fuel for the rockets and add hydrogen to it, thus producing water.
Pretty cool innovations I saw on the telly… There is a lot of thought going into establishing a livable environment on the Moon. ~rore -------------------- Peace&Love~rore
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Feb 4 2008, 09:51 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 16,827 Joined: 10-April 04 From: USA Member No.: 524 |
Extremophilic Terraforming http://www.americanscientist.org/template/...l/assetid/14719Might bacteria prepare Mars for human habitation? You'd think it would take a pretty big toolkit to prepare the Martian surface for human life. Not necessarily, at least at the level of a human habitat, according to Robert Richmond of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. In fact, the components may prove to be surprisingly, even microscopically, small in size. And although it is perhaps still too early for would-be planetary travelers to begin packing, the notion of terraforming Mars—altering its environment to allow for human habitation—is one that, for many scientists, has recently evolved from pure science fiction to theoretical possibility. ![]() Polyextremophilic bacterium One significant reason for the surge in optimism is a series of discoveries suggesting that extremophilic organisms—those that thrive under extreme environmental conditions—may be uniquely equipped to serve as vectors of change on Mars's inhospitable surface. Among the most promising of those organisms is the bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans, which has been found in many types of soil and such unappealing spots as sewage systems and animal fecal material. Richmond, a radiation biologist at the Space Flight Center, along with Michael Daly of the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences and Rajagopalan Sridhar of Howard University Medical Center, has been testing the limits of D. radiodurans in the hopes of harnessing its unusual characteristics for just such a toolkit (Proceedings, International Society for Optical Engineering, v. 3755, pp. 210–222.) It is widely accepted that current planetary conditions on the immediate surface of Mars eliminate the possibility of sustaining life as we know it: Low atmospheric pressure and surface temperature combined with relatively high levels of ultraviolet and ionizing radiation would appear effectively to prevent the long-term survival of organic life. In the 1970s, the Viking missions established that Martian soil contains high levels of certain metals and oxidizing species. To survive such a noxious environment, an organism must be highly resistant to oxidizing conditions. Hence the excitement over D. radiodurans. Not only can this bug withstand extreme amounts of radiation (whence it receives its name), but it has proved quite resistant to the effects of peroxides and other oxidizers as well. And when subjected to desiccation, freeze-drying and exposure to solar-flux ultraviolet radiation, the organism fares extremely well. Its multiple resistances have led Richmond and his colleagues to term the bacterium a "polyextremophile." Although scientists have documented the existence of extremophiles living in isolated environments like deep-sea hot vents or hotsprings for decades, rarely, if ever, has an organism been found to withstand such a wide array of extreme conditions. What makes the research so thrilling, says Richmond, is the "chance to actually uncover the utilities of the bacterium and not just isolate and classify it." click for full image and caption Mars, a likely candidate for human habitation Those possible utilities have increased dramatically in number since the successful sequencing of the bacterium's genome in November 1999. Sequencing the DNA revealed that many copies of the genome are present in any given bacterial cell in register—all the bases making up the DNA sequence are lined up in the same way, and the sequence itself is full of repetitions. It has since been proposed by Daly and coworkers that D. radiodurans's durability is the product of an efficient and highly accurate repair system: If exposure to radiation damages one strand of DNA, another strand may serve as a template. This hypothesis provides an explanation for each of the microbe's resistances. Thanks to its efficient repair system, D. radiodurans can survive any number of extreme environments. With a more thorough understanding of what causes D. radiodurans's multiple durabilities, scientists such as Daly are now working to genetically engineer the bacterium to perform work that people cannot. After all, Richmond says, "you must always think of the organism's utility in managing a habitat—you have to put the bug to work for you." Because it could successfully withstand the high levels of oxidants found on the Martian surface, D. radiodurans might be engineered to detoxify the soil. In Daly's lab, for example, he and his colleagues insert genes that code for an enzyme capable of oxidizing organic toluene, thereby rendering this toxic component of organic solvents harmless to humans. It may be possible to engineer a bug capable of reducing iron or manganese ions to their elemental forms, thus reducing the concentrations of noxious substances, and advancing one step closer to the creation of a habitable space. In fact, NASA is considering launching probes to specific Martian sites. This allows consideration of the use of extremophile organisms such as D. radiodurans to begin microterraforming small surface areas. The bacteria could begin transforming the harsh and uninhabitable Martian terrain in such a future scenario into one capable of sustaining human life. At its most fantastic, terraforming involves the alteration of an entire planet's environment, but, realistically speaking, says Richmond, we can perhaps imagine modifying the oxygen and soil content of a small room, several cubic meters in area, in direct contact with the habitat. When can we expect microterraforming to occur? Obviously, planetary biologists are still investigating the possibility that life might exist on Mars without human intervention, and they will want to be certain of its sterility before infecting it with engineered bacterial colonies. The notion of interplanetary contamination raises many difficult ethical questions, and although the NASA Planet Protection Committee has developed strict guidelines to prevent the contamination of other planets, it will most likely prove difficult to maintain such regulations if and when humans do land on Mars. What D. radiodurans can provide is a microscopic (and therefore easily portable) factory—a kind of terraforming toolkit—from which any number of products potentially can be derived. Whether it is engineered to reduce metals, produce drugs for ailing astronauts or simply manufacture the polymers necessary for the production of thread, D. radiodurans, one of the world's oldest bacteria, may provide a means of expanding the limits of the human imagination beyond the written sci-fi page.—Rebecca Sloan Slotnick I wish they'd quit thinking and start doing... |
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Feb 4 2008, 10:46 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 964 Joined: 27-January 07 Member No.: 5,475 |
(rorechof;347082) There are reports of oxygen rich ‘rock’ deposits on the Moon. The idea is to mine these deposits for their oxygen content in order to provide breathing air for Humans, fuel for the rockets and add hydrogen to it, thus producing water.
~rore Pulling air and water out of solid rock is cool in any age. |
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Feb 4 2008, 10:57 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 964 Joined: 27-January 07 Member No.: 5,475 |
I don't know if it is just me, but I think that if we learn how to restore a planet like Mars, we may very well find out how to save out own world.
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Feb 6 2008, 02:58 AM
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#19
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![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 25-April 05 Member No.: 2,184 |
(Andrew;346984) In what form would government take if human civilization extended throughout the solar system? Would we again see the colonies revolt for independence and see history repeated in another meaningless cycle, just on a larger scale of distance? Would we see independent warring planets, human migration problems and a vast disparity in living conditions between worlds?
Good point. If anyones interested theres a series of (fiction) books by Kim Stanley Robinson called the Mars Trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) Very interesting commentary on the social aspect of terraforming. In my view it could be done, on long enough timescales, with planets such as Mars and Venus to have human-habitable surfaces. As for the moon and other smaller satellites unfortunately the lack of sufficient gravity to hold a breathable atmosphere kind of rule them out. Having said that there are plenty of good reasons to establish permanant colonies on Luna, as well as other bodies such as the Jovian moons, or Saturns moons even. |
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Feb 6 2008, 03:35 AM
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#20
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![]() Group: Supporters Posts: 1,992 Joined: 17-July 07 From: Perpignan, Toulouse Member No.: 6,074 |