http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080311/ap_on_...s_environment_2

PALENQUE, Mexico - North American Indians assembled in the shadow of ancient Mayan pyramids Monday discussed how their tradition wisdom could help save the planet, and were told that even indigenous cultures have struggled with environmental abuse.




More than 200 leaders from 71 American Indian nations in Mexico, the United States and Canada came together in this Mexican jungle to find indigenous solutions to pollution and ecological problems threatening the planet.

"Our Mother Earth is being polluted at an alarming rate, and our elders say that she is dying," said Raymond Sensmeier, a Tlingit leader from Yakutat, Alaska. "The way the weather is around the world ... a cleansing is needed."

The conference began with a pre-dawn ceremony that included fire, copal incense, chants in Lacandon Maya and blasts from a conch shell.

Speakers reminded attendees that even Indian cultures have battled with environmental abuse and pointed to theories that deforestation contributed to the collapse of the Maya who built the temples at Palenque.

"As we stand here, very near Palenque, I am mindful that some scholars have suggested that environmental stressors contributed to the decline of the Mayan civilization," said U.S. Environmental Protection Agency regional administrator Elin Miller. "The planet-wide stress on the environment today means that collaborative efforts ... are not just good things. They may well be essential for our survival."

But, as Bill Erasmus, a representative of the indigenous people of Canada's Northwest Territories noted, "part of our role is to wake up the world. It is very obvious to us all that the climate is changing."

Mexico's environment secretary, Juan Elvira Quesada, said the gathering is meant "to present the teachings of the original peoples of North America."

"In this way, the indigenous communities can become the natural guides to restoring balance and harmony in the world," he said.

The lessons they have to teach are simple — based on reviving Indian notions about ownership, use, compensation and respect.

"I sometimes talk to scientists," said Sensmeier, "and they compartmentalize things, put things in boxes and disconnect them, and doing so promotes disharmony and imbalance."

It's a bit self-important.

A group of people, who KNOW they are watched for their attitudes concerning the environment, taking on the duty to spread awareness. Self important? I disagree. I see some people willing to at least TRY. While others still wont admit there is any climate change (while businesses are already ordering ships to take shipping threw the suddenly accessable Northwest Passage).

Businesses may be, or may have been, planning to do that, but it is only a gamble. Just because the capitalists are hoping to exploit it does not mean it is going to come true. The free market can be good at determining what is valid and what is not, but only when a business is established does it become apparent, otherwise it is only a gambit that they are making. It seem that the Arctic sea ice has made quite a healthy comeback this winter:

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IM...urrent.area.jpg

The Antartic sea ice extent was at a record maximum at the time the Arctic sea ice was at a record minimum last summer (but that did not feature so heavily on the news):

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IM....area.south.jpg

Antartic sea ice..yes. And many models predict that. Youre taking a parody of climate change warnings.. its not a uniform global warming that is predicted. In fact, many predict England will be much colder.

Is Arctic sea ice making a one year comeback? I dont know. But numerous companies already have ordered their ships to go through the northwest passage and the US and Canada are getting ready to regulate it.

So the unqualified statement "businesses are already ordering ships to take shipping through the suddenly accessible Northwest Passage" is not also a parody, as it only makes reference to a local warming? You brought up a specific example as implying a general trend first. You suggest that polar sea ice coverage is not so simple as a function of mean global temperature, and I would agree, but if that is so then why do you also bring up simplistic examples and then deride your opponent for bringing up a counter example?

This post has been edited by Andrew: Mar 24 2008, 08:16 AM

Im not deriding you for anything..but its clear you are consistantly attack straw man arguments when discussing climate change, both here and in other threads. Arctic ice is having a good WINTER, not year. And the ice that is there is thin, new ice .. of course this means it will melt much faster. The three previous years saw massive melting..but the one good winter somehow means climate change isnt happening?
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/02...arctic-ice.html
http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2008/10.html

And its amusing how the efforts of those who dont want to admit the phenomona play out.. basically they are emulating the techniques the Creationists use.. for example in this article they talk about the growing of winter ice.. but CUT OFF the interview quotes half way.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/0...t_drowning.html

In the entirety, the interviewee goes on to explain the points in the above articles..this is one year out so many, summer could be particularly bad because all the ice is the thin, new ice.. etc.. All just cut out. To fit a predetermined theory.

The interviewee also mentions that the perennial ice is thicker than at this point last year. Matters would be better assisted by easily accessible data on the mass of sea ice, and not merely on the extent of its area--which could be determined by an area integral of ice thickness, which the scientist implies they can just as easily measure--as mass, and a ratio of mass to area, would be a better indicator of the polar cap's health than area alone.