Thomas Jefferson once said "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." But the truth?

http://www.trimonline.org/topics/social_security/truth.htm

Trim is based in Appleton, Wis.. Interesting...its not far from me.

There is little doubt that our social security is in trouble.
They are talking about phasing it out, so how would you go about doing that? What about those that has paid in a lot during the phase out. They never gave any suggestions to do this.
I agree to put funds away privately might be a better answer...but what would happen to a retirement investment if the economy took a major shit? Do you retire homeless?
There are no easy answers, that I see.

What are you going to do with all the people who are disabled or too old to work? They struggle now to survive on as little as 600 a month now. Have you ever tried to live on 600 a month?

Many have to choose each month between food and medicine. Have they no right to cable tv or telephones?

Shall we say tough shit and put them on the street? Maybe they should be humanly euthenized? Maybe tuck them in kennels like dogs? How many are you willing to take in to your home and relieve the burden of support from social security?

How do you want your parents treated if they have no retirement benefits or assets and depend on SS?

A bullet to the head is only about 20 cents.

We probably spend more per person on people in prison than those on SS. Prisoners also get better medical benifits.

Close your eyes and hope they go away?

In some countries where there is no social security they have as many children as possible so that when they get too old to work there is a greater chance that some of their children will support them. Thats going to help with over population.

Often the children are deliberatly crippled to be better beggers to help support elderly parents. I know this is true because I saw it myself.

With all of its issues SS has some really ugly alternatives. Do you offer a solution?

Your thoughts?

There are no guarantees that you will see any of this money that you have paid in toward your retirement even if you live to retirement age. And if, for some reason, your health is bad and you need to seek early retirement, you'll play hell getting one dime of the money early. What's worse is that this is an outright deception upon the people. Its tantamount to criminal fraud and laundering. The government takes the money involuntarily from us (there is no 'opting' out), does not guarantee its return, pays no interest on it, regularly denies any petition for its return and deceives the public by placing it in non-existing 'trusts' which it can not account for. Because those trusts do not exist, it can not account for one dime that it has taken from you...it is laundering the money into other government interests for which you can have no accounting of. Criminal fraud is defined as intentionally deceiving another person for personal gain and the severity of the crime is determined by the extent of the loss suffered by the person defrauded. To launder money is to intentionally conceal financial transactions for fraudulent purposes. The government is blatantly perpetrating a crime upon the people.

This post has been edited by iwant2believe2: Apr 21 2008, 08:36 PM

How about we begin with an ounce of honesty? Let us start by not hiding government or corporate interests behind an altruistic social welfare system, lest such self-serving entities undermine the system's objectives. Next, if the government must 'borrow' from the fruits of the people to support its necessary functions then let all such money so borrowed be funneled back into the social welfare system. Let it go toward affordable health care, medicine, housing, food and transportation for the elderly and the disabled. AND let the government give a full accounting to each person yearly as to which programs their money has been forwarded to. Let the government be liable if such money is diverted to an interest other than the social welfare system. Give the people the full recourse of the Law to hold the government accountable for what rightly belongs to each individual. Further, and without penalty or duress, give the people access to a portion of their funds if financial need arises due to extenuating circumstances. This is meant for those people who are working and paying into their social security and are, as such, unable to qualify for welfare assistance such as food stamps, section 8 housing and free medical care.

Finally, let the government work toward lowering the cost of living. A person should not have to choose between paying their electric bill and buying food for the week or buying their heart medication. I am all for a certain measure of socialism if it works for the best interests of the people.

This post has been edited by iwant2believe2: Apr 21 2008, 08:38 PM

Yesss. Utopia. Consider that we have made advances in that direction. I don't think cave men had social security. Consider that technology has improved our standerd of living. Consider that we work towards the day when all of our needs are met by a technology that requires no one to work. Work if you want more than the minimum, or work to expand and improve, to learn and to feel a sense of accomplishment.

Auctually that might be achievable, if we can avoid self destruction long enough to accomplish it. Got a way to go yet, probably going to take a while.

I live on $600 a month, not because I dont want better, but becase I fractured my spine in 3 places from 32 yrs of working and falling in those work places.I also raise my grand daughter with it. It's the hardest thing I have ever had to do. If I get a little side job, I am penalized for trying to make myself better.They dont want you to get ahead. They want us kept down.I truely believe this.George Carlin said it best, they want it all back and that includes your social security! Dont expect it to be around for very much longer.

This post has been edited by cricket: Apr 22 2008, 05:29 AM

The Supreme Court said it quite well "These are true taxes, their purpose simply being to raise revenue.... The proceeds are paid into the Treasury as internal revenue collections, available for the general support of the government." Since this is the case, why keep up the charade? The government should simply be forthcoming and inform the people that they are being excessively taxed and that they may or may not receive a portion of those taxes back 20 or 30 years down the road. The people bear the burden of supporting the government and the government is charged with the welfare of the poor, rule of law and defense of the nation. The mandates imposed on the government have not changed but the burden on the people has grown and continues to grow. The burden necessarily creates a larger welfare state. Crime and poverty go hand in hand and as rule of law struggles to meet its responsibilities, it will continue to tie up more and more of the government's resources. The answer is not in increasing the burden of the people, the answer is in reducing government spending. A reduction in spending will lower taxes and allow more resources to be funneled into necessary programs and social institutions.

Special councils should be set up to review government spending and to end those programs deemed unnecessary or ineffective. An accounting of all government spending should be made available to the public at large. Any group of citizens should be able to call for an audit and review of any government expense. Political salaries should be reduced. A period of national service should be mandatory for every citizen whether that service be spent in the military, the community or political office. The living stipend for that service should not exceed the cost of living except where that service is considered hazardous duty.

This post has been edited by iwant2believe2: Apr 22 2008, 11:16 AM

Render unto Ceaser.

If you consider that every time money changes hands a tax is assesed then it works out to 80% goes back to the govt.

You get paid, income tax
You buy product at a store, sales tax
Store pays clerk, income tax
Store pays dividends to stockholders, income tax
Store declares profit, corporate tax
And the tax trail gets longer in the mfg and farmer links
Now add in personal property and real estate and title and license and bussiness license and the list is endless.

Result is the mony is always in a cash flow with a constant tax skim.
Ceaser printed it so Ceaser taxes it with the taxes being taxed.

But without it, all comes to a halt and we descend into anarchy and barbarism.

Caesar was one man, we are many. When the Government ceases to give an accounting to the people, it ceases to be the people and becomes an entity unto itself, apart from the people. The tax does not belong to the Government, it belongs to the people and should return to the people.

Touche. You get my point exactly. They trade on our dime. When questioned about UFO's during a press coference Dick Cheny said if he knew anything it would be classified and he couldn't talk about it.

He should have been brought to task on that one. Yet the press let it slide. Classify one of the biggest answers of all time?

It seems the juggernaut of government is out of control. It is no longer a government by and for the people. Only a government of the people.

The question is, what are we going to do about it. Revolution and anarchy are out of the question. Somehow we must force elected officials to make this issue part of their platform. Give us oversight, give us accountability, lift the viel of secrecey, bring the pentagon back under control, or you can't get elected.

Most politicians seem to believe that the comman man has no right to the information that would allow an informed opinion. Notice how it is then assumed that we are to ignorant to have an opinion.

Most of our lawmakers are lawyers. Most of our laws are unneccisarily complicated to ensure that lawyers remain employed.

Notice how most politicians dodge the issues we find most relevent. Notice how the press lets it slide.

I agree. We are a subservient people with placating, not true, freedom.