The Quran opens (aptly titled: The Opening) with a clear division between those who follow Allah (the favored faithful) and those who do not (the infidels who earn Allah's anger) and those who defect. It reads:

1:6 Show us the straight path,
1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the path of those who earn Thine anger, nor of those who go astray.

In the very next section, the Cow, the Quran tells us that an awful doom awaits the unbelievers.

2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Allah, who is proclaimed as the Merciful in the Opening, further displays his mercy...

2:10 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.

Verses 2:11 through 2:20 is naught but more proclamations of doom to heaped upon the infidel by Allah...

Verse 2:24 is an admonishment to believers to guard themselves against torment prepared for the unbelievers...

2:24 And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

Now the very next verse is a metaphorical glimpse of the sexual pleasures promised to the faithful of Allah...and the recipients of those pleasures? Men...of course. I wonder what is in store for the faithful female followers? I wonder if they shall be born again as virgins to serve men in paradise for all time...we'll see...

2:25 And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.

Verse 2:39 bespeaks Islam's intolerance toward other religions and their adherents...refuse to follow Islam and your rightful place is the Fire...

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

But Allah is forgiving to those Jews and Christians who convert...

2:62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

But those who broke the Sabbath (the Jews) are...apes to be despised and hated...

2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

And of the Sabbath and Covenant breakers again...

2:81 Nay, but whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.

The unbelievers are cursed...

2:88 And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe.

2:89 [...]The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.

2:90 Evil is that for which they sell their souls: that they should disbelieve in that which Allah hath revealed, grudging that Allah should reveal of His bounty unto whom He will of His slaves. They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom.

The Jews are the greediest of men and even worse than idolaters....

2:96 And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom.

The following is said of the Jew and Christian and yet the same applies to the Muslim...

2:113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture.

Whoever disbelieves the Quran as it is written (a clear admonishment that there scripture is not open to interpretation and reform) are losers...

2:121 Those unto whom We have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.

2:159 Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse.

2:161 Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined.

2:162 They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved.

2:174 Lo! those who hide aught of the Scripture which Allah hath revealed and purchase a small gain therewith, they eat into their bellies nothing else than fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom.

Followers of Allah must recompense an 'eye for an eye'....is this merciful? The way of Peace? There is certainly no admonishment to 'turn the other cheek'...quite the opposite...

2:178 O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.

Fight and slay the disbelievers...this is not, as the 'reformers' would have you believe...a spiritual struggle...the letter is clear and Allah is clear "Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah"...

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:194 And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

As is the command to fight until every knee bows to Allah...feel like converting to Islam today?

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

Observe your duty to Allah

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not

Do not marry unbelievers...

2:221 Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire...

Having sex with your women (your property, in other words) is duty before Allah...

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will

Women have rights similar to men(though not equal to...because..) and men are above in them value. Not sure how much clearer one can be on the Quran's commanded subordination of women...but I'm sure they can try...

2:228 [...]And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Now verse 2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion."...is a clear contradiction to verse 2:193 "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." Makes no sense does it? Most would find the prospect of death pretty compulsive...

The word of a woman is only worth one-half of that of a man...

2:282 And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women

The Cow ends with a supplication to Allah give the Muslims victory over the unbelievers...

Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk.

That covers the Opening and the Cow and its all pretty much a repeat of the same 'death to the idolaters' cry, plus a few 'good wills' put in between...I advised anyone to read both passages fully before continuing any further here. The contention is that Islam itself is not bad...that's its a message of peace and tolerance...its my contention...and made clear from the Quran itself...that that is bullshit...pure and simple...the Quran is, after all, the ultimate authority on Islam..

I'm sure that I will get more angry replies here than any I ever received when criticizing the Bible...but that's the way of things it seems...seems like its ok to pick apart the Bible and criticize it but its not ok to do the same to the Quran...

Well, anyway, I'm going section by section and highlighting...but I'll go verse by verse if necessary...the Quran is just as full of violence, intolerance, contradiction, etc as is the Bible...more so even...but I want to make it very clear..as I would do the same with Christianity and Judaism..I am condemning the religion of Islam here...not the people...

But if you admit that the Bible and Torah are essentially just as violent.. why do you NOT make statements such as "Christianity is the problem".. but you DO make statements such as "Islam is the problem". If with time both Judaism and Christianity moderated their approach to their own religion, do you not think Islam can make the same move? Do you not see that perhaps it already has begun? How much violence is done in the name of Islam in Turkey? Dubai? Oman? Qatar? pre-invasion Iraq?

Just as Christians no longer take their own Bible literally for the most part (or do they just ignore parts?), in the right social climate Islam also dispenses with the most extreme of its lunacy. I see few Christians and Jews calling for the death penalty for homosexuality, I see few Christians taking to heart or finding any message at all in the story of Lot, etc.

The majority of versus quoted above merely mirror what the other Abraham religions say.. you MUST believe in Jesus to get to heaven, women are essentially chattel, etc. The only difference seems to be that in practice, Christians simply dont believe (or perhaps dont know) what their own Bible is telling them.. or have let common sense take over their faith to some degree.

I agree that "Islam is the problem"..but only to the degree that I believe religion is the problem.

22, I think you'll find that the same ideas are in the Bible.

Vet, while I agree that to a certain extent, religion IS the problem (I don't believe in organized religion myself), I think it's more a matter of people USING a religion for their own power.

I've often said that many fundamentalist Muslims don't know what they're asking for when they say that they want the whole world to be Muslim (and is that statement any different than what the fundamentalist Christians say?). The more people you have that belong to a religion, the more liberal that religion will necessarily become, which is why STRICT interpretation of Christian doctrine is only possible in SMALL groups.

Question for 22: you posted half an hour after I did. Why not just post on my thread?

Mods, can we combine these two threads please? I have a feeling we were writing at the same time, perhaps.

This post has been edited by kirin-rex: Jun 3 2008, 09:05 PM

I see what youre saying Kirin.. I just see it as a bit.. of being an apologist. One doesnt have to be trying to use religion as a power to have it be evil. Religion is the triumph or the irrational belief over reason, and on that road much evil lies.. from perpetuating poverty by not allowing birth control because you "believe" every sperm is a potential life... to suicide bombers in the hope of obtaining 72 virgins..

I see your point there, however, I think a lot of evils also come from a misinterpretation of religion. For example, in Islam, like in Christianity: it IS a noble thing to give one's life in defense of the innocent or oppressed, however it is also forbidden to commit suicide. Suicide bombing are actually against Islamic scripture. The bombers are breaking their own rules. Why? Because (a) they didn't bother to read it, and/or ( b ) somebody told them it was okay.

I don't see it as being an apologist because I think those religious leaders who are propagating hate and violence should be ... sorry to say this: destroyed.

This post has been edited by kirin-rex: Jun 3 2008, 10:02 PM

suicide bombers hmmm,didn't jesus die in the cross supposedly for us.i find religion,evil,controlling and contradictory and be responsible for countless deaths,but it has made us who we are and has shaped civilisation.where did god come from and who or what made him.

The British atheist philosopher, and later deist philosopher, Antony Flew said it best:

"Jesus is an enormously attractive charismatic figure, which the Prophet of Islam most emphatically is not."

In Islam the example of Mohammed is the model for all (male) adherents of the religion.

This post has been edited by Andrew: Jun 4 2008, 05:49 AM

But Kirin, thats sort of the point, isnt it? There cant be "misinterpretations" of religion because its based on BELIEF. Its not like you are making a mistake with measurements and someone comes along and can correct it objectively. Its all "belief".. and there is nothing to distinguish it.

Your example, suicide bombing is a great one. YOU are focusing on the "suicide" aspect of it. THEY focus on the killing of others aspect and say its not suicide but rather a specific type of martyrdom, and martyrdom is specifically REWARDED.

Religion teaches one to make a decision NOT based on the facts of any given situation but based on BELIEF. This, self evidently, is ready made disaster waiting to happen.

Ah, very well-put, Vet. This is true.

See, I guess my thing with this whole topic is this, and this is really at the heart of why I'm arguing at all: I have friends who are Muslim, good friends. Now, I can honestly say they are liberal Muslims. One of them basically doesn't practice it at all. The others fast during Ramadan, but they break lots of other rules. I guess what it is - these friends of mine identify themselves as Muslim, so when somebody comes along and says: Islam is Evil, I kinda sorta take that as an attack on people I personally know. That's all.

I'm not expert in Islam. I flipped through a Koran once. I've had talks with my Muslim friends about similarities between Christianity and Islam (did the same with a Jewish friend of mine: learned a lot). However, I'm not expert.

When I watch the news, I sometimes feel the way 22 does: I think "Those people are crazy." I can't understand the extremists and whackos, and on the news, they ALL seem to be whackos ... but my friends aren't. My friends are great people.

That's why I'm talking about this. I don't identify myself with ANY religion for the reason that some many people who preach in any religion seem only to preach division and hate. That's just not what I'm about.

That said (and back on topic) it's my understanding that the basic rules of Islam are not different from the rules set down for Moses: and some of those rules are pretty crazy. That said: it's also my understanding that in Christianity, the idea is that Jesus came to reform the law, and get people to use common sense instead of only following the letter of the law (hence why he was often in trouble: he kept refusing to uphold Jewish law). Still, if Islam is Evil, isn't Christianity evil too?

I kind of figured, from the way you were writing, that you actually were sort of defending a particular person.. and I understand how you feel.

And Im not one to single out Islam at all. Its not that I think Islam is particularly bad. Given the economic state of the nations its most popular in, I doubt Islam will ever have even the opportunity to cause the suffering that its Abrahamic rivals have done. What I will say is that, at this particular point in time Islam is the most directly violent..but I dont see this as a function of Islam in particular, its a combination of its maturity and its social context.

Islam's greatest tragedy might not be in its actual laws, but in that its homeland is Saudi Arabia. And just like much Roman and Italian and generally Western thought is mis-categorized as Christian thought, much of what is not strictly Islam but is rather a Saudi has now been taken on as Islam. The cultural fascination with martydom, the burka, the absolution domination of females..these are much more about Saudi culture..but those aspects have been export hand in hand with Islam.

This combination of a quite insecure, absolutist religion with a severe culture combined with other facts of modern economics and politics combine to make Islam the most obviously violent religion today.. but, really, at the root, we find the common fault in all systems of thought that value "belief" over logic, observation, and fact.

I agree with everything you just said. I've often wondered why we ally ourselves with Saudi Arabia when it is one of the worst of the lot. Even Pakistan, whose government is essentially secular (the result of a military coup), the CULTURE is particular repressive.

The reason "we" ally with Saudi Arabia (Saudi Arabians) would be that the bush family as well as other major oil conglomerets are very close friends
and that these oil tycoons, so to speak, are all apart of the illuminati.

The problem with that idea is that a) the Illuminati were a 19th century group in Europe and the US relationship with the Saudis predates either Bush presidency.

Its also such a gross simplification that it makes me sad to think people form their world view that way. Even among people who believe in the Illuminati this idea wouldnt make sense.. dont the the Illuminati rule from the shadows, being hyper manipulative to the point that societies dont even know they are being manipulated? That is not the nearly the case in Saudi Arabia.

Because I was not, at the time, addressing Christian terrorism and oppression.



Not according to the Quran's divine command and will, Vet. Let them do so...I sincerely hope that they do...but I am not at odds with them, I am at odds with the Quran...essentially the foundation of the religion of Islam.



I agree....many of them have reformed.



I agree again.



Islam is the problem with Islam.

If the problem is with Islam..flat out.. then where do places like Tanzania, the UAE, Indonesia fit? If Islam is intrinsically violent, surely we should find relatively high levels of religious violence across the board..and yet, we dont. Almost self evidently there are other factors at work OR Islam is capable of becoming just as moderate as any other religion in time.

The Christian Bible was taken as a literal call to arms to the same degree the Koran currently is for many hundreds of years. Christian theology can be spun to justify horrific acts, if done to prevent someone from going to its idea of Hell. It has tempered itself, and presumably in time so will Islam.

Meanwhile, though deaths by starvation, disease, etc are far less spectacular and so dont get the news, deaths caused by Christian theology I would be come out as a higher number than all suicide bombers combined.

Islam is the problem with Islam? Just as Christianity is the problem with Christianity and reliance on "faith" rather than fact is the problem with all so called "world religions" which transform local traditions in to "universal truths".

That's irrelevant to the question of Islam. Let's address the err of the Bible in its own thread.



Explain please. There is a difference between a thing being used improperly and a thing existing for a specific purpose.



Christ said turn the other cheek. What did Muhammad command? Strike them down where ever you find them? But I don't want a tit-for-tat Christian vs. Muslim debate here. Why can't people simply address ISLAM? I've engaged more than a few debates on the Bible and Christianity where was never a word was mention about Islam. Not possible when criticizing Islam, however....anyone have an explanation for that?



I may have sent my post through but that does not mean that I began the thread after your's. I took some time, as I recall, before sending my first post through. I wasn't aware (and am still unaware) of what thread you're talking about. I don't much care what happens to this thread. You were right that I don't want to discuss it, but not for the reasons you presuppose. Its futile. You will never convince me that a religion that is blatantly intolerant to other beliefs, oppressive to women, commands and sanctions violence, etc...is good. Nor will I ever defend it or make excuses for it. If it makes anyone feel any better, I feel the same way about Judaism and Christianity. Fortunately, I am not confronted by Christian or Judaic terrorism every time I hear the news and their oppressive tactics against women are mostly constrained to religious rituals and spiritual significance...not sanctioned and imposed by governments and society at large...most are simply underlying sexist sentiments...not laws and deeply rooted customs which place women beneath the feet of men. For over 4 years, I've been rallying against this sheep in wolf's clothing...this perverseness called organized religion...but I am tired now...I don't want to talk about it anymore.

This is well-written and I agree with you completely. However, I think it's a mistake to look at Islam in isolation. I think a greater understanding of these religions only comes through comparison and contrast.

There ARE many things in Islam that I would consider to be evil and indefensibly so. There are also many things that I consider to be good, and of value, in Islamic law. The same is true of Christianity and Judaism.

There is, undeniably, good and evil in all of these. I cannot deny the evil, but we should not overlook the good. The good and evil in these religions is in the practice, and therefore in the individuals. People who commit evil in the name of God are evil.

If we look at the law as a whole, the good and evil together, and assume that we must follow ALL of those laws: then that religion is evil and should not be followed.

If, however, a person belongs to one of those religions, but tempers the law with wisdom, compassion and common sense, follows the good laws and omits the evil laws: then that INDIVIDUAL is not necessarily evil.

We are only responsible for those things we do, or do not, those things we tolerate, or do not.

In this way: I can see and understand your position and what you say. You aren't, apparently condemning ANYONE for anything except that which they do. You ARE however, condemning the religion that encourages people to do things which are undeniably evil and wrong.

That's something I can agree with.

Your words are NEVER in vain, 22, if they lead others to understand you better. In that sense, you have not wasted your time at all. It is not that you and I disagree about the ideas. On that, I think we agree. I only didn't understand what you were trying to say. Now I think I understand much better.

Two points:
1) My post is in this forum: The bible vs. the koran. I started it. Just look down.
2) It's not necessary to be so defensive, 22. Relax.