do you see ID cards as an infringement of your privacy and freedom,every thing about you encrypted on to a cedit card.or do you think it will help combat terrorists.i don't..i can't see the card displaying your occupation as a terrorist.it wil reveal race,religion,class and intelligence.

Our privacy is very slowy becoming less and less, simply by our use of technology.
I do not see it limiting my freedom here.

While I don't mind something presenting my basic information, I do fear of something actively tracking me. Onstar is a frightening thing to me. With the system they can lock/unlock your doors, turn off/on your engine, and a plethora of other things your car's electronic circuits can do in your car. I think they can just short of steering your vehicle, do anything they want to it. I do want identificaiton so that I can live in a world with credit and not worry about someone using my home to send bills to. It's the level of my privacy I'm willing to lose to prevent Identity Theft. On the other hand, I would like to drop off the radar when I want, if need be and cannot do that with active tracking. Onstar also tracks the vehicle via GPS. It's great if you like that degree of security, but if I did something to get the government angry at me, I wouldn't want that on my car.

For the normal everyday person who is NOT a lawbreaker I can't see the problem with I.D. CARDS.
It has been mentioned, in a previous post, that it would not be wanted for the government to be able to track you via the GPS in your car(if fitted). I'm sorry to throw the cat amongst the pigeons but the government are already able to do that incorporating the technology built in to modern Mobile Phones.
What's with the new technology being incorporated into Passports? they have now what looks like a memory chip at the back of the Passport.
If you use Credit Cards your movements and whereabouts can be tracked. C.C.T.V. within City Centers can track your movements. Like I said, if you're not a law breaker then what have you got to worry about?

I agree with this statement if not for the reality of history. This is, upon first glance, a logical staement but it is catastrophically flawed. Unfortunately, it is a mantra repeated by those who have not only forgotten recent history, but those who are not even aware of current world events.

I come from a family that fought communism. We are are very aware that, true, if you are not a law breaker you SHOULD have nothing to worry about.

Unfortunately, when entities gather information about you (and the more personal the more damaging), they now have an arsenal against you that virtually no one can defend, should they decide to manipulate it to their advantage.

I'll give you a decent example.

Let's say you have an ID card that you can do everything with. Let's say you present this ID card to vote, to pay for movies, to pay your internet bill and as primary ID to buy a firearm.

The powers that be have created a terrorist attack along with powerful propaganda. They have declared "temporary" martial law.

Now they want to begin gathering possible dissidents to put in "temporary" cutody. They have your info, history, activities. You broke no laws.

But now, they have declared that the former candidate John Doe was a subversive and that he has been detained. They say that all who voted for him are suspects and they are sought for "questioning".

Now they have identified the movie you saw, about a possible government conspiracy regarding 911, was a possible subversive activity and those who attended it are to be sought for "questioning".

Next, they declare this forum a gathering plcae for terrorists and subversives. All IP addresses and those who have paid internet fees to access this site are now considered suspects and are sought for "questioning".

Finally, those who own firearms are declared as anti-government subversives and possible terrorists and are therefore sought for "questioning".

Put all these together and you have probable cause, under Patriot Act IV (thus far, fictional) to gather whoever you want out of the way.

Before you think I have an over active imagination, please familiarize yourself with the political histories of:
Cuba, Mainland China, the former Soviet Union, Cambodia, The Philippines during the Marcos years, just to name a few.

Please research tactics of any dictator, past or present, and how they began before they and their cronies were known as tyrany governments.

Understand that in the US is could most certainly happen. But it could not happen in just one generation. The typical American has historically been too informed, patriotic and grateful for this to happen. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case with this current generation.

intelligence? as in the card displays the carrier's IQ?

good point about the mobile phones. cell phone records.

most "normal" citizens break laws. like constantly. remember kids: "ignorance of the law is no excuse!"

try going through your normal day without having your state issued ID.

This post has been edited by Dr. Impossible: Jun 10 2008, 11:59 PM

No one is forcing you to run around with an ID card now is there?

Fixed

The idea of being able to establish your identity as quickly as possible is surly very practical. In themselves ID cards are not a problem, in fact a card or system that contains all of your personal information, money, passport etc. seems then next logical step in our digital utopia.
The problems will only arise when the ID system is abused and manipulated by the state for purposes of control.
The debate in the UK as I understand it, is that, right now the police can't ask you to produce ID on the street for no reason. They can't 'ask you for your papers'..to use a phrase. Mainly because no such 'papers' exist. If needed you have to be able to confirm your name and address, but it does not have to right there in the street.
people that I speak to, are worried that the introduction of an ID card will give the police the power to demand your ID card, and punish you if you can't produce it whatever the reason.
It's when this situation becomes common, ID cards are not mandatory but you will benefit from having one and ostracized if you don't, that the last remaining drop of personal civil freedom drains from the cup.

im not being funny but its what the nazi's done during the war.Papers please...SCHNELL!!!

no that doesn't quite fix it.

and yes, here in the land of the free your ass can get picked up (as in by the police) for vagrancy for not having a state issued ID. especially if you go out after midnight without an ID and get stopped by an officer, there is a good chance you'll be staying in the graybar hotel. the boys & girls in blue get very testy when they can't find out who you are. they can keep you long enough to make sure you have no warrants or until your identity has been confirmed.

so yeah ... "someone" is kind of "forcing" us to run around with ID cards.

in the US police have the ability to use probable cause as premise for seeing your "papers"... or a staste issued ID card, drivers permit, etc.

This post has been edited by abadaka: Jun 14 2008, 02:39 AM

identification papers are necessary with bar-code to beep-past for sociological research and..ok droid monitoring of identity thief to stop it. besides the amount of detail needn't be neurotic, britisher.

This post has been edited by Xchel: Jun 16 2008, 04:07 AM

Are you serious? I knew the U.S was bad, but that you can actually get arrested for not having an ID with you... geez.

Nah I don't mind it, my husband is a Cop and he has a strip on the back that's magnitized for easy file reading. It's just for his job though, not for anyone else. Besides, we kind of need liscenses to drive so no matter what we're gonna have to have an ID.

SL

Actually, yes. I don't know what laws they use, specifically, but I recall an incident two years ago when I went for a bike ride (bicycle) and I was just enjoying the afternoon. I left from home and rode a few miles out. I rode through some shopping center parking lots as I usually did and then rode behind a Walmart to cut through the business park behind it, using it as a short cut to the boardwalk next to the river a couple of blocks away.

I did this on countless occasions. I usually forget to take my wallet with me when I ride and usually only carry my cell phone and a $5 bill to get a bottle of water somewhere along my ride. This time, however, while I was riding behind the Walmart I heard a car engine revving and the sound of a car approaching fast from behind me. When I turned I saw a Sheriff's car headed toward me fast.

The cop drove within a few feet of me, rather fast, and blocked me, yelling at me out his window to "stop right there." He ordered me off my bike and told me to step away from it. He asked me what I was doing back there and I explained where I was going and that it was my usual route.

I asked if there was a problem and he did not answer that question, instead, he asked if I had any ID. I put my hand in my back pocket and realized that I had forgotten my wallet again. When I told him this he said, in a rather sarcastic tone, "uh huh." He then asked my name but at this point I was a little irritated. I told him my name and address and the name of the business I was the owner of (it is well known in the community). He told me I needed to produce some ID. I told him I didn't have my wallet to which he stated that he would have to call for another unit, that they would have to impound my bike and take me to the station for questioning.

At this point I was outraged but remained calm because I was all alone and he could say anything after he beat me up or shot me. I calmly asked under what charges I would be arrested. He said I wasn't being arrested. I said I must be arrested in order to be forced to go to the station and have my personal property impounded. He then said I was tresspassing, to which I replied (because I knew this to be a fact) that there was no "No Tresspassing" sign anywhere on the premises and unless someone called in a complaint, that idea was bogus. I realized then that I would not be able to reason with a power-inflammed LEO so I remembered that I had my cell phone on me and said that I would call my wife who was home and she could bring my ID.

I was quite surprised to hear him say that I COULD NOT DO THAT. I told him that he was refusing to let me produce the ID that he had asked for. Before he could respond I called him by his name and badge number and told him to call his supervisor on scene immediately then I named my attorney (who is very well known in the community) and told him I was pleading my fifth amendment right at this time.

He actually did call his back up and mentioned that if the super was available to come on scene as well. Thankfully, the second officer to arrive was a customer of mine and knew who I was. He told the first officer that I was "ok" and my name and what I was the owner of, confirming what I told him. The first officer suddenly became friendly and explained that they could never be "too careful" about who may be around an unattended parking lot with employee cars in it.

I told him while I understood this caution, he stepped beyond his authority in threatening to take me in just because I didn't have ID. The frightening thing is that they both told me that they indeed did have the authority and they quoted the county ordinance code number that authorizes them. They let me go and told me to carry my ID next time.

I have not looked this ordinance up because I do not want to see it. Maybe they were making that up. But we are definitely headed for some frightening times in this nation. Our county just allocated several million dollars for SWAT team training and weapons/equipment upgrades and this is a sleepy county that has never had any major violent crime incidents. I think we have had 3 murders in the last ten years. The last bank robbery was in 1992. I don't remember hearing or reading about any car chases in years. And everyone I know including myself can leave our cars unlocked and such and never had a car stolen or broken into. Why spend millions to expand the SWAT team?

It is hard not to think paranoid or wonder if there is anything to some of these conspiracy theories.

This post has been edited by Fleet Admiral: Jun 22 2008, 08:56 PM

Okay that's just a waste of space in jail. I mean that's like saying if I don't tell you my name all I'm getting is bread and water until I do. It's control. If you don't have an ID here in America, it's just your own damn fault cause you can't do shit without an ID. Cept maybe pump your gas and pay with cash when you shop.

This post has been edited by sleepingladybug: Jun 23 2008, 12:38 AM

No it's not a good idea. The US and British governments are working on having a common technology for their new ID cards. The Prophet Rael says:

"30 years ago I announced that Genetic ID cards were coming soon. They are good for secure identification but bad for freedom. But all powers will coordinate their efforts to have everybody accept less freedom for the illusion of more security.

That's why we need a worldwide revolution to destroy people's fears and make again freedom and privacy the priorities. Fear creates more government power, more armies, more wars and more violence. The feeling of security gives less power to governments, less armies, less wars and less violence.

After the disappearance of USSR, US militaries were depressed and afraid to lose their privilege and huge budgets as USA had no more enemies. September 11 was welcomed by US militaries as a gift from "god" as suddenly all the nationalisms and so called "war on terror" were a good excuse to keep their power and budgets and even have more. The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq gave them all the prestige they needed to stay in power. All of this just because of unreasonable fears instilled in the public with the complicity of the medias, who, of course, sell more papers and advertising when they create fear in their audiences. So both the economic powers and the political powers have everything to gain from a collective fear.
Even if a paranoid world is created, with terror rating shown as weather forecasts, which is proven to be even worst than the weather forecast, as very high terror alert never materializes in any attack. But it keeps the collective paranoid fear alive and this is its only goal." Be afraid and give us power and money to protect you" that's the motto worlds politics and media. All of this with the help of only a dozen of men armed with cutters...

Now the biggest super power is in a "war against terror". As recently a US politicians explained to have a war you need 2 armies... Here there is only one, with a virtual ennemy who is only the fruit of pure negative imagination. But 300 billions dollars have been injected in the US army and benefit to the US corporations. And the profits realized by the medias due to the collective fear are huge. They are willing to be "imbedded" to any army in the world in order to make more money. And all occupation powers of the world are jumping on the so called "war on terror" to justify their violence, tortures, and illegal occupation.
China was the first in Tibet, Russia in Chechnya, Israel in Palestinian territories, and now China again in its Muslim areas, and many more eastern countries.
The lie of the "war on terror" is becoming the justification of an incredible erosion of freedom and privacy in the very country which was build in the name of freedom: USA, under the disguise of the so called "patriot act" which gives to US federal authorities as much power as the nazis SS. Now the whole world can torture prisoners, keep them in jail for a long time in concentration camps without trials and not respecting the Geneva convention by just naming them "detainees" or "suspected terrorists" and USA can say nothing as it started it...

The only way to save the world, the peace, and to be back to a peaceful civilization is to destroy this collective fear created and maintained on purpose by the politicians, the corporations and the medias. It's a very hard job as these three superpowers rule the world. But by instilling in the world population especially with this magic tool which internet is, we can make good defeat evil. If ten people with cutters created an evil wave, millions of peace loving peoples with keyboards and voting powers can defeat it. But to win this "war against fear" we must attack every aspect of this collective paranoia. This ID card is one of its aspects."

-Josh
Aliens='God'
www.rael.org

there is no such thing as wasted space in jail... it all gets used.

prison and jail overcrowding is a major problem in the US. prisons cant be built fast enough to encompass the evergrowing "criminal" element. it is big business. the more clients... err crooks, that are detained the more budget money the government awards the state or private facilities. the US has more prisoners than any other nation.

jails are crammed to the brim with 'undesireable' types that easily find themselves back in the system. when revenues are down the cops sweep the streets for vagrants. most vagrants are people that just got out of jail...

the more time one spends in a prison the more likely they are to go from being a petty crook to hardend criminal. im not saying jail shouldnt be a bad place, it very well should be. it is a place for punishment not rehab. thing is... its turning people into animals.

the admiral's story is a fine example of what it is to be jaded. those cops probably thought he was trolling for a crack-whore or casing the joint, because they deal with shit like that. but it perfectly illustrates my point about having to have ID. without it you are assumed to be a second class citizen, or worse a criminal seeing as how it is an arrestable offense. now...its been this way for a long time, long before the proposal for national ID cards.

Not necessarily; it depends on how you look at it. Some, like myself, may think that certain kinds of "criminals" either shouldn't be there in the first place (depending on one's personal beliefs/politics), or that certain kinds should be in OTHER places (e.i. hospitals). Nobody can surely say that there is NO "wasted space" in jail.

Anyway, back on track..... exactly what kind of "ID card" are we referring to? As in, state I.D. or drivers license? I wouldn't see those as any government trip... those are used both as verification and safety; they tend to help us more than the government.

i didnt read the whle thread,

but isnt the importance of the id, to be able to identify criminals?

i feel that the government is a great service to the people, but when the government becomes corrupt that is a problem.

id's can be a great thing, or a horrible thing, just depends on whose hands they fall into.

perhaps there is a better way... im too lazy to think about it at the moment...