I found myself thinking a lot about this today... All day at school I donned this t-shirt:



and, despite many dirty looks, I received absolutely no reaction by any staff members. No, it's not just me; every now and again I see a student wearing a very vivid and violent Scarface shirt, and since I will see them with it on all day, I assume nothing is being done about it. With all of this "zero tolerance policy" towards guns and violence in school, I'm quite surprised that clothing with a very bold vision of that exact thing is never reprimanded, especially since there is almost an entire page on this sort of thing in the 'Rules' section of our student planner. As discussed in another thread on AU (here), so many schools appear to be cracking down on the violence “threat” occurring in schools, so I find it odd that even something as simple as this goes unnoticed.

So, my question is, do you find it acceptable for school(s) to abandon certain rules on this sort of thing? Or do you believe that the “zero tolerance policy” should be taken to the extreme, and that children/teenagers really are that easily influenced nowadays? I, personally, don't mind at all. Obviously... it allows me more freedom with my attire, and I honestly don't think that merely seeing a gun, or any weapon for that manner, printed on a t-shirt is going to encourage anyone to shoot up a school or harm fellow students in any way. That sort of condition in somebody takes place within their mental and emotional stability (or lack of), and those people will be triggered regardless; violent clothing doesn't really make much of a difference in my book.


Your thoughts?

Zero Tolerance would need to be well defined.
Drawing a simple pictures for grade shoolers is way too far.

The other question is how do they handle an offense.

Suspension is a cheap,way of handling it without taking into consideration the student involved, how they feel, why they did what they did...etc.
Suspension can lead to them dropping out.

Obviously bringing physical guns to school that shoot projectiles is never tolerable.

Well yes, of course, but I know of many other schools (obviously not my own) that feel the need to punish severly for just demonstrating a gun; on a drawing, a shirt, ect. Many adults (relatives mostly) who I have spoken to about this subject before appear to agree with it and feel that it's effective in decreasing the chances of real guns being brought to school, and I find it kind of ridiculous altogether.

This all goes back to freedom of speech, anyone has the right to express what they belive no matter who they are or how far fetched it is.

Wearing them T-shirts to me is no more than watching p.g rated action films as long as what is depicted in them remains fiction, does not wearing them reduce said crimes - maybe it does but to anyone complaining about these things being in our schools do keep in mind if our children cant express there rights why should you be able too (because adults know better ? remind us when this was learnt & how) you can only learn about opinions if you express them.

Just to add does showing wars on the news every day increase violence in society ? but this is okay :shrug: we either have freedom or we dont there is no in-between.

Yes, that's how I've always felt. As long as it's not harming anyone, it should be allowed. I'm quite pleased that my school isn't as uptight as some of the other districts around here, but, in all honesty, I think it's more out of laziness than actually being open-minded. lol

By the way, kylix, I LOVE the quote in your signature! It gave me a good laugh.

Im intrested in why you say laziness - i was always of the opinion that we as a species need to blame something no matter how far fetched, we have heard games, movies, music, pictures, writing or other people have all influenced some crime at some point but what this flawed logic seems to fail to realise is for the one it does influence, it dont seem to effect the other 1000+ poeple that saw the exact same text or image.

When asking these people that say these things do increase crime we also need to ask them how they learnt the exerienced opinion they have now reached because in usual cases them watching there own child get violent at video game ect... has something more to say about them as parents rather than saying it increases violence because i seen it in one person.

I see it all the time the similarity between all things and witch hunts it happens so often that i can only conclude its in our nature.

Thank you for the compliment of my sig - play it as a game spend a whole day saying how you see it and i promise you will have a smile, only as individuals we make sense.

Kylix posts: but what this flawed logic seems to fail to realise is for the one it does influence, it dont seem to effect the other 1000+ poeple that saw the exact same text or image.

Rore posts: Of course ‘images’ have an effect on most people’s consciousness/‘psyche‘…

Extrapolate the numbers Kylix…

By your own estimate, one million out of a billion people will be affected by violent images, video games etc… That is a lot of people… (And I cannot say for sure the numbers are accurate)

And we certainly know how much chaos even one person can cause if they become mentally unstable… The tragedy at Virginia Tech comes to mind… (No, I am not suggesting violent video games etc caused that tragedy…)

BUT… There is some neat research being done in the UK which indicates endorphin levels increase significantly when people ’play’ violence oriented video games. This is of some concern…

Kylix posts: Just to add does showing wars on the news every day increase violence in society ?

Rore posts: Wellll, the USA does have a record of being a very violent culture and at the same time, the purveyor of sooooo many violence oriented “Action Movies”. Is there a possible correlation?

We also have an idea that violence in the home may have an effect regarding violent behavior ‘acted out’ by the children of said homes…

What is behind the picture of a gun on a T-shirt with the words “BANG YOU’RE DEAD” anyway? (And all Capitalized letters?)
Is the ‘artist’ conveying the message that guns are dangerous? Vote for gun control?

Is it, “Mess with me and I will kill you!”?

It might even be enough provocation for a ‘tuff guy’ to get in the face of the T-shirt wearer, take a huge fist, punch the t-shirt wearer in the chest and then say, “NO!!! BANG YOU’RE DEAD…!!! Harharhar!!!”

Kylix posts: we either have freedom or we dont there is no in-between.

Rore posts: In Modern Society, Freedom and Responsibility are integral. If people do not act responsibly (or within acceptable societal expectations/law) when exercising their ‘freedom‘, they will have their freedoms curtailed. It really isn‘t an either/or situation in Modern Society…~rore

Well, it is six.

Kylix replies : This is a geat point right their rore and even though the numbers sounds very high i will back you and say look at our prisions they are higher populated than for example 10 years ago and no one can say not even the criminal that is wasnt something on t.v that effected the psyche, i will point out that increase in seen crime could have something to do with increase in populations than 10 years ago or could be an increase in medical disorders like schizophrenia which is linked back to genetic & early enviroment problems like the increase in family break-ups than 10years ago.



Kylix replies : I have seen these studies rore and will back it up by saying that its as if the body is reacting as if it was actualy in the game rather than playing it, but will add what it dont look at is endorphin levels in most sports competitors have even greater levels but they dont run of into the stadiums at every chance.



Kylix replies : there could be - but look at a scared animal and how it behaves when frightened it does snap at things that go near it, is there an increase in american fears from say 10 years ago.



Kylix replies : What if the message on the garment is "I stole this" am i now going to worry about someone stealing it off me & if people really are this susceptible im going to get one printed with "you owe me £5" seriously people actualy are look at the nike brand it counts on this, but what i will point out is why do they choose only certain messages to react to is it becuase they have a border line problems about this topic before hand, what if i had a shirt with a gun on the front and "NO" on the back would this also trigger the same response in said tuff guy.



Kylix replies : While it makes common sense on the surface i need to ask myself where does it stop, grey clothes, no symbols and cetainly no veiws expresed because an individual cant adjust to modern society - regardless of our views we agree the individuals need help but is supressing society the way forward.

Thank you for input rore it would be a dull place if it was black and white

I say laziness because my school has always lectured us the first day of school on what sort of attire can be worn and what you will get in trouble for, along with a fairly large section in our student planner as part of the 'rules.' If they set these standards and don't comply to them, I consider that being lazy.





I've never thought of it as having that much meaning; the "BANG YOU'RE DEAD" is simply from a song by the band. I'll admit, the band itself could be considered 'violent' with many of its lyrics, but I've never considered it trying to motivate people into violence. It's just your typical angry rock band for people (not even just teenagers-- most of the people at the shows are 20-40) to listen to when someone or something is pissing them off. Nothing more.

I know some may say that hearing angry music when you yourself are angry can be an encouragement in itself, but I disagree; I think that lies with the individual. I, for one, enjoy listening to angry music when upset because it's expressing what I cannot. It's a way of "venting," so to speak. I don't deny that angry music could possibly pump people up for violent actions, but music is a form of expression, especially for the artist. Nobody should be limited to their own expression because others can't control themselves. And if you're really so hostile that an angry song makes you snap, you were pretty close to the edge anyway and it was all inevitable as some point regardless.



Just for the record, I am not necessarily condoning what I wear at school. I know I broke the rules and should have gotten in trouble for it; I had actually wanted to be called down to the office (long story), so I was just surprised at the lack of reprimands concerning it all.

Kylix replies : While it makes common sense on the surface i need to ask myself where does it stop,

Where does what atop Kyl? Responsibility? Society’s agreement on what is acceptable?

What I know of this Freedom concept is: If I do not want any restrictions imposed upon my behavior/actions, I will need to live away from Society and its restrictions on my freedom.

I have done this, meeting with Society’s rules on the rare occasion I needed the services of said Society… It was a good experience but alas, the siren song of the Big City called to me and I succumbed…()

It’s good that you should bring up professional athletes in that I befriended a psychiatrist with an exclusive clientele, all (7) of whom were members of the same professional sporting team engaged in a violent sport..
These folks’ problem? They found it more than a little difficult to turn off their aggressiveness after the game.

You may have read some accounts where professional athletes got into trouble in public for their aggressive behavior?

What we may not read about is how their aggressive behavior harmed those in private…
They were diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and to date, there is no known cure for this condition… The psychiatrist was convinced none of them had this disorder prior to becoming a professional athlete. Conclusion: The sport they were engaged in encouraged their development of ptsd…

US Soldiers returning from Iraq are presenting with this condition (PTSD) too, in rather alarming numbers.
Does violence or the threat of violence cause severe problems for some folks? You Bet!!!

GTH. I hear where you‘re coming from… I had a T-shirt made up saying “FUCK YOU I won‘t do what ya tell me!!!” inspired by Rage Against the Machine…

I don‘t think that shirt would be cool for someone to wear at K-12 school though… Not at this stage of Human development lol ~rore

I have to put my 2 cents worth in here. I had to think about this before I posted any thing. I don't believe games, toys, and etc., cause violence. UNLESS, you are already prone to it . I mean if you sit around and think about it , and think about how to harm one or many , then I dont believe it has an effect .To most its a game, a shirt, a toy, and nothing more. Thats where mental issues in my opinion come in.And that is a whole different animal.

Cricket, you expressed my own opinion pefectly. As I said in a couple of my other posts, seeing violent images (meaning, not including witnessing violence in real life) cannot make a person violent. That sort of thing is already programmed in their mind, and if something *happens* to further push them along, that only displays other issues of how weak-minded and close to the edge they really are.

Unfortunately, most people I have discussed in a mature manner on this topic (my teenage friends have no valid input, to be honest) are at least 15 years older than I am (and conservatives), and most of them disagree with me. I realize that the majroty of members on here are 20-years-old and up, so I wanted some more open-minded feedback.

Violence is not programmed into a mind at birth.....a lot of factors come into play to drive people to socially unacceptable behavior to include violence. I think that zero tolerance is a joke....no less a joke than the "gun-free zones" that are anything but. Schools have been suspending and expelling kids for plastic butter knives, toy soldiers, and playing games with their hands mimicking guns....it's laughable. Meanwhile, schools from elementary on up to the collegiate level debate the merits of armed adults on campus, the one true method that would deter a shooting or allow an armed response to minimize damage. Feel-good measures taking the place of solid solutions. So no, banning "images" like that described in the original post is ridiculous....like most things schools are coming up with these days.

I half way agree on violence is not programmed in at birth. But Some is. Kids torturing and killing animals for the enjoyment of it? Where would they get that from if not already programmed in from maybe say genes? Some people are born with mental illnessess that begin to show itself at a very early age. I still dont believe movies, toys, games, and etc. cause some one to be violent unless its already there inside hiding waiting for a wake up call.

I didn't mean it like that, although it's my fault for not making my point clearer. What I meant was, people that have already been conditioned to have that in their mind have already gotten it stuck their head; there's no way that a stable-minded person with no prior exposure or trauma with that sort of thing can have themselves altered by something as simple as a t-shirt/movie/video game/whatever.

Oh yeah that I can get on board with.