Thread: Is David Jacobs being influenced by aliens?

Originally Posted by julia52

nice theory, thanks bart, for saving me the trouble of looking up ANYTHING out about this creepo--already knew that when he betrayed a patient's trust that he was not to be listened to, but cool, now i know that he would have us 'witch hunt'--and who, i wonder, decides exactly who are the supposed 'hybrids'; and why the heck kill em? what is he so afraid of

if i am wrong, correct me, but i believe he does not even claim to be an abductee; what is HE so worried about?

so...sd...exactly what theories of mr. jacobs do you find interesting, just curious

I will be candid.
I do not understand much about the abduction phenomena, and am curious.

Every researcher in the field I started to study turns out to be untrustworthy.
Every study I have seen debunking it is seriously biased.
I have seen no serious research of the phenomena that I can say with good conscious was without flaws.

Mostly I leave the subject alone.
There are exceptions.
When I see it used as a platform to promte a personal vision of conduct the aliens expect us to live by, I go on attack.
And if I see someone who is obviously looking to exploit the gullible I do so as well.

I would like to undestand it, but there are a lot of things I don't understand.
It is a big universe.

One thing that bothors me about it.
There always seems to be a religious or spiritual model attached to it.
Before I could entertain any kind of value system or conclusion, I would first have to establish that it has a physical reality.
There seems to be a fuzzy line that seperates dreams and visions from what is physical.
Most of the posts I have read switch between dreams and reality claims with little distinction between the two.
But, that could be a superficial judgement by me.
I don't get through a lot of the posts.
The faith based value systems don't hold my interest

Originally Posted by bart5050

I will be candid.
I do not understand much about the abduction phenomena, and am curious.

Every researcher in the field I started to study turns out to be untrustworthy.
Every study I have seen debunking it is seriously biased.
I have seen no serious research of the phenomena that I can say with good conscious was without flaws.

Mostly I leave the subject alone.
There are exceptions.
When I see it used as a platform to promte a personal vision of conduct the aliens expect us to live by, I go on attack.
And if I see someone who is obviously looking to exploit the gullible I do so as well.

I would like to undestand it, but there are a lot of things I don't understand.
It is a big universe.

One thing that bothors me about it.
There always seems to be a religious or spiritual model attached to it.
Before I could entertain any kind of value system or conclusion, I would first have to establish that it has a physical reality.
There seems to be a fuzzy line that seperates dreams and visions from what is physical.
Most of the posts I have read switch between dreams and reality claims with little distinction between the two.
But, that could be a superficial judgement by me.
I don't get through a lot of the posts.
The faith based value systems don't hold my interest

i appreciate your openness, bart ; it IS a curious subject. and you are right that most of the so called 'studies' are just that 'so-called'. too many have some sort of an agenda, either proving their outlandish(usually)theories, or debunking anyone who even saw an orb, for crying out loud-ridiculous.

i don't know if every study has had a spiritual side to it, tho--i did like karla turner, as least she was outspoken, and there are lesser known folks who research the phenomena more seriously--that's the thing, tho, they are 'lesser known' and so will not hit the mainstream like fools like billy meier. no, they are doing their own research and once in awhile MIGHT make a coast to coast show; most often times not

i did want to discuss your comment of a 'fuzzy line that separates dreams and reality from what is physical'. could you clarify that a bit? because you know that there is physical evidence, usually every true abductee has talked about the bruising, the cuts(some which heal 'miraculously'), little 'indents'(scoops) in odd places, hard'somethings' just under the skin; oftentimes when the abductee looks at the inflicted area, a memory will surface--hey, it's the best we can do at this point, bart, they don't want us to remember much...

a real problem is always, of course, separating fantasy from an actual possible encounter. i do not believe that everyone has been abducted--i think that is a theory of 'someone special'(maybe collier? i can't remember). i do think that many have had sightings, but abduction is something else--it takes a pretty dramatic event in my mind, anyway, to convince me that they were 'taken'. you can almost feel it when you read the posts here; dreaming of flying a spaceship for example, might just be that-dreaming of flying a spaceship, we DO like to act out our fantasies when we sleep. a good clue-to me anyway, after researching this for a time(necessarily)is the 'cover stories' do you know what i am talking about? that is, a very odd 'dream' that is almost like trying to 'cover up' the reality so that the dream appears to be a dream...for example, i 'dreamt' i was lying on a dolly(why) and being pulled along; i saw a semi 'fly' over me-thought it was going to hit me or something. now, when i woke up(also a key)i felt well, 'grossed out'; dirty somehow, my skin felt almost slimy; also i woke up almost 'catching my breath'.. when i was scrubbing i was laughing thinking about a semi flying until i realized it was no semi i saw--it was the undercarriage of one the ships, and i pretty much figured out it was no dolly i was strapped to...

it's hard, i know, to discern, but it is a real phenomena, that i know(and no, billy is not the only one--if he is indeed one-who has been 'contacted'). there are too many accounts out there that ring all too true; and not the 'famous amoses' the regular folks who remember things; remember drummer's thread where his gf 'pulled him back' from them? witnesses, physical evidence...i don't know how much more, that even a 'skeptic'(which i personally don't think you are by the way )needs...

julia

Marks on the body would be solid evidence for an investigation.
It is physical evidence of superficial personal injury.
Making it medical evidence.
Leagal systems, insurance, and science all require medical evidence to be documented by a doctor.
In this case, a bit more because it would require the same documentation as a forensics type evidence collection.
If claiments want to offer it as evidence, someone needs to pay for a doctors visit to collect evidence equal to crime evidence standards.

Claims and ancedotal evidence have been bandied about and included in books for decades now.
More of the same isn't going to change anything.
The only thing that will is physical evidence collected like a legal investigation.
That would include supposed implants.
With analysis by accredited laboratories of any recovered materials.

That is the only approach that could bring anything new to the subject.
Collection of claimed physical evidence to lab standards.
It would take financing to do.
If you can fund the project, you can examine any subject.
If doctors around the world documented identical patterns of superficial injuries are occuring, that then yields a description of what kind of instruments applied with what kinds of pressure would cause them.

You aren't going to take the field any further than it has been until it is handled as an investigation to legal standards of data cllection.
You remove bias because the doctors are not collecting alien abduction evidence.
They are collecting criminal investigation evidence.
Their report, photos, lab results, etc. are forwarded and their job is done.

Originally Posted by bart5050

Marks on the body would be solid evidence for an investigation.
It is physical evidence of superficial personal injury.
Making it medical evidence.
Leagal systems, insurance, and science all require medical evidence to be documented by a doctor.
In this case, a bit more because it would require the same documentation as a forensics type evidence collection.
If claiments want to offer it as evidence, someone needs to pay for a doctors visit to collect evidence equal to crime evidence standards.

Claims and ancedotal evidence have been bandied about and included in books for decades now.
More of the same isn't going to change anything.
The only thing that will is physical evidence collected like a legal investigation.
That would include supposed implants.
With analysis by accredited laboratories of any recovered materials.

That is the only approach that could bring anything new to the subject.
Collection of claimed physical evidence to lab standards.
It would take financing to do.
If you can fund the project, you can examine any subject.
If doctors around the world documented identical patterns of superficial injuries are occuring, that then yields a description of what kind of instruments applied with what kinds of pressure would cause them.

You aren't going to take the field any further than it has been until it is handled as an investigation to legal standards of data cllection.
You remove bias because the doctors are not collecting alien abduction evidence.
They are collecting criminal investigation evidence.
Their report, photos, lab results, etc. are forwarded and their job is done.

and there is the 'rub' isn't bart...who is going to pay for this, a possible abductee? heck, most are so adverse to going to the doctor for ANYTHING-i mean, i used to think i was just some klutz in the middle of the night--like i would go and tell the doc(and pay for it, too, even tho i had insurance--don't get that one lol), uh doctor, i have this hard thing in my thigh, woke up with cuts and bruises--i would be embarrassed, as would most... plus, i don't think that most doctors are going to look at something like this and go 'yep, alien abduction for sure'; they are going to ask if maybe you bumped into something when you went to the bathroom, and of course, since you can't remember shit, you think, who knows, best to avoid the subject altogether...

some HAVE had their implants removed, tho, i do find those stories fascinating...some appear to have merit. real interesting, because what i wonder, is how come the docs don't say 'oh wow, this is unbelievable, we are going to publish this, yada yada'; i mean, i only recently found out that others have well, 'hard things' under their skin; i am not exactly ill-informed of the news, but it is like the rest of the subject, it is SO rare that anything at all about the alien/ufo community hits mainstream. sometimes i wonder if the masses really would not give a shit(my opinion)...just say, what if, it was announced on cnn 'alien implant identified'; i wonder if it really would just be ignored; maybe the 'masses' really MIGHT take a second glance...

sorry, we are getting off topic; i do apologize ::

julia

Originally Posted by julia52

and there is the 'rub' isn't bart...who is going to pay for this, a possible abductee? heck, most are so adverse to going to the doctor for ANYTHING-i mean, i used to think i was just some klutz in the middle of the night--like i would go and tell the doc(and pay for it, too, even tho i had insurance--don't get that one lol), uh doctor, i have this hard thing in my thigh, woke up with cuts and bruises--i would be embarrassed, as would most... plus, i don't think that most doctors are going to look at something like this and go 'yep, alien abduction for sure'; they are going to ask if maybe you bumped into something when you went to the bathroom, and of course, since you can't remember shit, you think, who knows, best to avoid the subject altogether...

some HAVE had their implants removed, tho, i do find those stories fascinating...some appear to have merit. real interesting, because what i wonder, is how come the docs don't say 'oh wow, this is unbelievable, we are going to publish this, yada yada'; i mean, i only recently found out that others have well, 'hard things' under their skin; i am not exactly ill-informed of the news, but it is like the rest of the subject, it is SO rare that anything at all about the alien/ufo community hits mainstream. sometimes i wonder if the masses really would not give a shit(my opinion)...just say, what if, it was announced on cnn 'alien implant identified'; i wonder if it really would just be ignored; maybe the 'masses' really MIGHT take a second glance...

sorry, we are getting off topic; i do apologize ::

julia

It would take a study to do it.
The docs would not be aware of the purpose, they would just be given a protocol of what they are being paid to document.
And their professional description of the injuries.

The claiment is just getting an exam at the request of an insurence agency, lawyer, or whatever.

I do remember these vids of when the disclosure project began.
People were giving all this testimony and declaring they would testify before congress.
When oppertunities to do so develped, they didn't.
And we no longer see the project interviewees saying they will testfy before congress.

The well is poisoned by bad press all around.
It is going to take data that is independent of bias.
Hypnotic regression would not be of value.
If memory modification is the claim, then no memory can be trusted.

The charletons don't want real science involved, and neither do the faithful.
Real science does not want to get involved in a field full of pseudoscience and faith.

It would take a funded project.
The first primary study would be to establish that a common physical condition is common to claiments.
Just that would generate an interest, cause the general skeptical claim is that it is all in the head.
Which does not imply crazy, many factors affect perceptions.

The physical evidence claim is made.
Documenting the evidence is all an intial inquiry need accomplish.
Evaluating it would intitially be to refine what needs documenting.
Find something, anything, physical that requires a commonality of cause across the globe, and I think other studies would emerge looking for why.
The first study would be better received if it merly coallated data and offered a statistical analysis without a conclusion as to cause.

Part of the problem is too many premature conclusions and too little documented data.

Well Julia part of me you know wants objective proof. The other part of me has been able to identify non abduction phenomena mistaken to be just that either due to deliberate hoaxes or psychiatric or psychological issues or false memory.

Then again I believe others can not be properly explained and should not just be written off. We have had evidence that crosses societies and cultures in consistency and where intimate details have been remarkably similiar-is that coincidence?

We have had instances of foreign objects removed from people that grew into their skin and are of unknown metals.

I think its a rich, wide open topic that remains to be explained and is a work in progress.

On some claims I will challenge them as hoaxes and on others probably my personal bias leans towards psychiatric explanations but on others, I think the doctors are as baffled as the persons who experienced them.

I also think ridiculing people who report such phenomena illogical and abusive.

You know Julia I personally have great suspicion about hypnotherapy. I think myself its caused more abuse then harm to abductee claimants.

I just hope with any such claimant they can be questioned to try preserve the integrity of the scientific process of ascertaining validity without doing undue harm to them and emotionally reinjuring them.

I defer to your discussion . You guys have covered the points of course with respect to each other and done a good job I think.

Originally Posted by Mika-El

Well Julia part of me you know wants objective proof. The other part of me has been able to identify non abduction phenomena mistaken to be just that either due to deliberate hoaxes or psychiatric or psychological issues or false memory.

Then again I believe others can not be properly explained and should not just be written off. We have had evidence that crosses societies and cultures in consistency and where intimate details have been remarkably similiar-is that coincidence?

We have had instances of foreign objects removed from people that grew into their skin and are of unknown metals.

I think its a rich, wide open topic that remains to be explained and is a work in progress.

On some claims I will challenge them as hoaxes and on others probably my personal bias leans towards psychiatric explanations but on others, I think the doctors are as baffled as the persons who experienced them.

I also think ridiculing people who report such phenomena illogical and abusive.

You know Julia I personally have great suspicion about hypnotherapy. I think myself its caused more abuse then harm to abductee claimants.

I just hope with any such claimant they can be questioned to try preserve the integrity of the scientific process of ascertaining validity without doing undue harm to them and emotionally reinjuring them.

I defer to your discussion . You guys have covered the points of course with respect to each other and done a good job I think.

well, you know i agree with you on most points, mika-if it was all points, it would be boring we would have nothing to say to each other, lol. seriously, i totally agree with your concept of NO hypnotherapy for abductees-i am still indebted to comfortably numb(wherever he is, thanks again ).

such an anomaly, isn't it, those who have had 'experiences' that don't fall into the 'dream' category...so frightening for most of us...and yet, can you believe it, there are those who would actually take advantage of the situation for their own gains..suppose we should not be surprised, nothing new in this world, but boy, it sure would be nice to have like an au/aa meeting 'hi my name is so and so and i think i have had an experience' and feel free to really talk...but, we are a 'interest' for too many...too many unscrupulous folks

maybe one day, some day...we can really share and not be afraid



julia