a joy in living a life

- when there are 2 or more people who are in love and have the capacity to share in the work, the joys and the hardships of a long term relationship and/or marriage, this would be deemed a God send and/or natural.

- the only event and behaviour that can be deemed deviant is that which is based in hate, harm and violence between two or more people where there is no consent to warrant this behaviour.

- all men and women regardless of age, culture, class, sexual orientation and education have the capacity and the faculties to harm one another and themselves. It takes great courage, thoughtfulness and love to understand and navigate through inner most angers which may stem from a lack of understanding, a lack of self-appreciation and a lack of self-awareness.

- language and ignorance are commonly used as tools to create divisions between people. As people open up their hearts and find their God and/or what is one's source for a complete life, the language and desire for connection become a way to include and understand all the diversity and experiences that this life has to offer. This, in turn, dismantles ignorance.

- gay, straight or transgendered people who feel anger towards one another is not uncommon. What I simply wish to do is invoke a messege that would show that all people who struggle to live life to its fullest and to develop themselves in virtuous ways have a right to a safe livelihood and to celebtrate their joys. If we as a society cannot offer basic forms of respect and support, then we are not really part of any solution...we then are part of the dismantling of humanity.

- I hope that there are real gay, straight and transgender people who read and contribute to this forum and feel that they have a place to share their humour, UFO/Paranormal curiousities and time with one another. As I, who am straight, enjoy doing. And if I may have overlooked the fineprint on the requirements to be contributing to this forum one must be straight, then I will happily venture to other furoms and look for a more inclusive community. I would not wish to miss out on meeting and/or reading about incredible people and their experiences no matter who they are and what their background is. The only condition would be is a board's inclusiveness.


peace - dreamrunes

The news today is about gay marriages in California...60 per hour are applying for a license!

I do beleive that no one shoud be rejected from anything on the basis of human imperfections..we are all imperfect in some way. HOWEVER

Having all that said:

In psychology, it is being taught that the reason homosexulaity is more acceptable today is because there are more in numbers (which is the only way they reproduce).

A reason homosexuality is so "deadly," is that it spreads disease. There is no way you can protect yourself from HB if you are engaging in oral sex. Isn't that the most popular method of sexual contact?

Also sexual contact is for reproduction purposes which is more than an increase in numbers.

The lure of this attraction could also lead to child molestation...which is highly reported and highly detestable in most of the world.

Again the norm creates an acceptance that overlooks the consequences.

________________
On the other level:
Some people do not feel that birds of a feather flock together, and just because they choose to do something you don't choose does not mean you are like them just because you are in association with them.

The statement: one apple spoils the whole bunch or a little leaven ferments the lump, only applies when you are stored or combined. Keep your distance and you shouldn't catch anything! Mentally or physically.

Hrm... Dreamrunes.. this could've been discussed in Vandals' thread. oh well.

Alright... now.. what I just want to get out is that AIDS and others are not a gay disease. Anyone can get them..anyone. It's just a lack of responsibilty and most of the time, scruples is why stuff like that spreads around and gets out of hand. You live in the US, you should know this, Lona. Although, methinks Missouri is not as bad as say, Texas, or California, or some other places. I, as most know, am straight. but have a couple of homosexual friends, but choose to overlook that. They don't act like they are, they choose to conceal it, but it doesn't bother me. Either way, they're great friends.

Any kind of sexual contact, and you can get an STD ... whether or not you're homosexual or not. This fact should not be overlooked. People who ARE homosexual, should not be seen as 'evil' or bad people. They're, except for a few ways, just like us 'straight' people. Really. I'm surprised that I'm even saying this. Me, who's also stubborn...is admitting this! lol. Odd.

ANYways..Dreamrunes..did you know that in the topic title, you spelled marriages wrong? teehee. ^.^ It's alright, though.

yes...I did notice I tried to edit it...but once it is in the thread...it remains.

A lesson for me.

thx for the response.

mhm..

I am not entirely sure what this thread is about. I don't recall anyone condemning homosexuality here, includng myself. It is just that most of us are opposed to gay marriage, as it is ethically wrong.

I suppose homosexuality in a way is wrong too, but I guess we have to come to terms with it now, as it accounts for a sizable minority in the world today.

Here comes Ben with his size 10 wellies!

I find that most people who reflect on the whole gay issue miss the point by not reflecting on the cultural/historical roots of homosexuality. They also fail to address the issue in the same terms as heterosexuality. Now I don't mean to be patronising to anyone but there some things I'd like to point out for discussion more than anything else.

1) Homosexuality has been an accepted and a sometimes predominant practise in historical cultures...parcularly the Greek culture.

2) When we reflect on any issue of sexuality we automatically use as our frame of reference heterosexuality as the 'normal' or 'natural' way of things I would dipute this.

3) There are at any given moment in time over 1 million people on the planet earth who are neither male nor female. They are of course Haemaphrodites. Where do we place them in the grand scheme of things? Do we say there, there, you didn't come out normal? Maybe (Just a thought) that's the way we were meant to be and it's us guys and gals that are messing things up by not being 'normal'.

4) We do not addres the central issue which is not transexuality or homo/hetro/sexuality it is SEXUALITY full stop. There are well documented cases of girls who have lived as girls for their whole lives and then in their teens becoming male. Anyone who wants to know how this has happened please PM me as I'm not gonna post it here as kids may read it and get worried.

5) Cultural practises I can't remember which it is Sardinia or Sicily but there is a Ferry journey there on which you will regularly see the mothers of tiny boys sucking the penises of their children. This is in no way a sexual act (although it may feel that way to the child). It is a placatory method for calming children that has been used in that region for centuries. We in our world however would view it as very wrong. Again because we do not address central issues of sexuality.

6) People are not constants...well some people are. But people can 'feel' homosexual one week and not the next. We are not a static creature we move, we change, and some of you who may find homosexuality contemptible may indeed turn out to be homosexual in the future (Again I am guilty here of seeing Heterosexuality as the 'norm'.

7) Can't think of a seven but if I do I'll post it....should be enough there for you all to burn me with anyway.

Oh yeah seven! In the 1000's to the 18th century although men and women were aware of their biological difference they were viewed as coming from the same stock. This was due to anatomical study. If you look at the male penis and scrotum it is very similar to a woman's ovary tract and ovaries. It was honestly believed that Men were extroverted women and that women were introverted men. See the image in your mind and yo'll see why they thought that. We were therefore 'the same' whether we were men or women. We just had our 'bits' inside or outside.

Ben

Edited...And Raj....Marriage is a socially constructed event...it not a natural or biological event! There's a whole marriage commercial package out there just waiting to pull you into it. We constructed marriage, we can deconstruct or at the very least rearrange it!!

I am not disputing the origins of homosexuality. However, it has only become recently accepted, and there is reason to believe, this has encouraged homosexuality in otherwise hetrosexual men.

Marriage is more than a social constructed event, it has legal ramafications, and it is also a descision people take, most of time, for setteling down with children. As I said in the other thread, homosexuality should NOT go beyond a form of sexuality. You may argue, two people who "love" each other, may want to conjoin and thus should be allowed to marry or even adopt and nurture children. That really is pushing the envelope too far in my opinion, as homosexuality itself is against nature. A man and a woman can procreate; a man and a man can only copulate(in the most disgusting way) Nature intended us to reproduce; pleasure is secondary. Nature intended the child to be born from the womb of its mother, to be nurtured by his mother, and strengthed by it's father. A balance.

If we are going to give homosexuality the liberty of marriage and adopting children, because they love each other. Well then might as well give this right to anyone who loves each other;

a horse and a man
a little boy and a little girl
a little boy and a little boy
a little girl and a little girl
A man and little girl
A man and a little boy
A woman and a little girl
A woman and a little boy
A 16 year old man and an 85 year old woman
A threesome
A foursome
A whateversome

Simply on the premise that they "Love" each other, and thus should have the right to marry. Yet it is ethically wrong. Just like homosexuality is wrong.

You missed my point Raj

Marriage is a socially constructed event in the same way that the legal situation that binds two people together is a social construct.
Now you seem to be equating sex with love, please seperate them out. There is such a thing as sex for pleasure so that rules in most of the things which you described below. Now at the risk of sounding like a paedophile...I would also like to point out to you that I am opposed to sexual behaviour bewteen children and adults but on moral grounds. The reason for this is that we know more and have advanced more in our thoughts, morals and ethics since it was commonly practsied. Nero used to use suckling children for fellatio and it was the accepted thing. Not any more and rightly so. I would also like to point out that until the late 1800's there was no such thing as childhood! There was infancy and then you became a young adult! That is why if you look at paintings of children from pre late 1800's they are dressed in adult clothes. They were adults. Childhood is a modern invention.

One other point.... You mention sex with animals may I point you in the direction of Kinsey (1948) SEXUAL BEHAVIOUR IN THE HUMAN MALE. Where one in every ten of respondents from USA admitted having sex with an animal. What does that tell you about us as human beings???? We have to look deeper Raj...we have to look deeper.

Ben

Sure Ben, we can look much deeper, and trash ethical and morals laws. Why should free thought be restricted? We are born free, and can do whatever we wish.

We can have sex with anything moving
We can marry our own sex
We can steal
We can maim
We can murder

Absolutely anything.

Trouble is, it would be anarchy everyday, and we would be back in the stoneage. So perhaps some moral and ethical structure is needed

Sex is not for pleasure, speaking from it's role in our biology. It is for reproduction. Pleasure is a biproduct of the process. Much like having a shower to cleanse ones body, is for cleansing the body, and the pleasure of the process is the biproduct. As you should know, most animals do not even feel pleasure during mating. At one time, nor did we.

Sex is not for pleasure??????? I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm lowering the tone that is not the intention Raj. I just want to get to the truth. Ask a woman sometime where she really would like you to put it?? You won't get babies comin' outta there Raj! Ask a guy soemtime what he feels like doin' with it...makin' babies isn't high on the list of priorities. Of course there are times..loving times..caring times...sensual times when that is the primary urge..but not all the time.

This applies to both sexes not just one. Women can be as horny as men. Let everyone be as horny as they want to so long as no-one is getting upset at it or troubled by it why not????
If it does not impact on your life why should it bother you?

Ben

Read this again.

As for sex itself. I think it is an overrated activity. It loses its novelty quite quickly. The reason it is so prized in human culture, is because the sensation is rare. However as per the law of diminishing returns, if you do it too much, or watch it too much, it becomes a chore. This is why humans seek variation in their sex lives. Old wine in a new bottle.

Just my personal opinion on sex. I often joke about sex with people I talk to, I find peoples reactions to it quite amusing

But it also has a role in our social selves. I'm not denying the biology of it. I'm denying it's predominance.

Ben

Many things have a role in our social selves. Socialising; eating; sleeping; entertainment; walking; exercise.

Sex is just another facet.

Simply by denying its predominance, is not going to negate the truth of its biological role. You may choose to harness this function for pleasure, however at the end of the day, beyond your closed little world, it is for reproducing.

Mmmmm Nope me stick with pleasure and my world is open for all to see!

Ben

Well blow me up and lay me down!!! Me too... me too... my little world is closed real firm... and by cripes, I intend to keep it that way...

I enjoy eating... by jingoes... a chocolate mousse with ice cream is sheer pleasure... as is grilled lobster in garlic butter and avacado... Gawd... makes the mouth drool and I tell you what... this has nothing to do with any bodily function or for any biological necessity for food... sheer indulgence... the thrill of eating and savouring the tastes... And to top it all off I'm lucky I don't gain weight easily so I ain't complaining one iota... How about a bit of roast witchey grub and goanna?

I love sleep, when I get it, I love walking for pleasure... and a good socialise makes the adrenalin surge... as does a a bit of a roll in the hay... relaxing stuff...

Oi Raj, if that is what having a closed world is about, then I fully intend to keep mine firmly closed...

Dingo Brains

*

Or an old bottle in new wine??? Diminishing returns??? You're doing something wrong Raj. Sensation rare? 'Fraid not! And the memories themselves can last a lifetime! There's sex in everything Raj...if you want it to be. Some days I do...some days I don't...but I'll decide. And when I do there's no diminishing return....just pleasure.....oh and chocolate mousse, Ice cream, much exercise and very little sleeping!

Ben

Sorry for the double post but I don't want to be accused of editing a post which Raj may later respond to.

Raj you have been equating sex,love and marriage. You must remember also that until the 19th Century very few marriages were for love....It was for the bringing together of estates and wealth. More so probably in India than anywhere else or maybe predominantly in India where this still happens. Today marriage in the West is mostly based in love and for that reason when people who 'love' each other wish to have long term relationship then for God's sake let them do it!

One of the problems when discussing sexuality is that any counter argument against homosexuality runs up against things like bestiality, paedophillia, crime, drugs and these are all diversionary and detract from the arguments! When women felt free enough to masturbate or demand sex from their husband's on their own terms (Without fear of God, religion or their husband's) the world did not collapse into anarchy and yet it was a sexual revolution.

It was long argued here in Britain that women should not be allowed to vote because during their menstrual cycle they became 'unstable' which meant 1/4 of Britain's women would be unstable at any given time. What codswollop. But these argument's remind me of that same narrow mindedness, that same tunnel vision that took so long to defeat! I'm not gay.....I rejoice in the fact that others are! I have had a few wives *Blushes* and I've had my fair share of wild times *Doesn't Blush*. I'm still here and wouldn't harm you Raj, I don't harm the system, I don't harm anyone. But by your criteria. I am a sexual deviant and probably a criminal!

Ben