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Dec 20 2006, 09:10 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,338 Joined: 8-April 06 Member No.: 3,971 |
Exxon Spends Millions to Cast Doubt on Warming
By Andrew Buncombe and Stephen Castle The Independent UK The world's largest energy company is still spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund European organisations that seek to cast doubt on the scientific consensus on global warming and undermine support for legislation to curb emission of greenhouse gases. Data collated by a Brussels-based watchdog reveals that ExxonMobil has put money into projects that criticise the Kyoto treaty and question the findings of scientific groups. Environmental campaigners say Texas-based Exxon is trying to influence opinion-makers in Brussels because Europe - rather than the US - is the driving force for action on climate change. "ExxonMobil invests significant amounts in letting think-tanks, seemingly respectable sources, sow doubts about the need for EU governments to take action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions," said Olivier Hoedeman, of the Corporate Europe Observatory. "Covert funding for climate sceptics is deeply hypocritical because ExxonMobil spends major sums on advertising to present itself as an environmentally responsible company." It has long been known that the oil giant, which in 2005 recorded an all-time record for quarterly income, has spent millions of dollars to fund climate sceptics. Exactly how much is unknown but some estimates suggest $19m (£9.7m) since 1998. In its 2005 report, Mr Hoedeman's group details payments by ExxonMobil to two organisations the International Policy Network, which received $130,000 and the Centre for the New Europe (CNE), which received $50,000. The Observatory suspects Exxon has also funded other groups engaged in undermining legislation. Its report said: "There is mounting evidence that many EU-focused think-tanks are heavily funded by corporations and this raises serious concerns about their agenda and their independence." The two groups cited in the report have long been accused of denying climate change. Greenpeace's ExxonSecret website notes that in 2004 the network issued a press release criticising the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, saying it had "intentionally exaggerated its estimates of temperature increases by using highly implausible scenarios of future growth in emissions of greenhouse gases". Greenpeace also lists a 2004 posting on CNE's website which claimed: "The Kyoto Protocol is failing because it is ineffective, costly, and unfair. It is also 'scientifically flawed'." Last year The Independent revealed how a US-based lobbying group which received substantial funding from Exxon was seeking to develop a Europe-wide network of think-tanks, journalists and major businesses to act against legislation to counter climate change. The organisation claimed its approaches had been flatly rejected. Kert Davies of Greenpeace said: "Europe is leading the world right now in terms of climate policy. Exxon know that if they can [enlist] lobbyists they may be able to slow things down. That is the tactic right now." Such is the concern about ExxonMobil that earlier this year the Royal Society, considered Britain's leading scientific academy, wrote to it asking that it stop funding groups that have "misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence". Ellen Bisnath, a network spokeswoman, confirmed that the organisation had accepted $130,000 from the oil company. She said: "We are an independent think-tank and we are contributing to the scientific debate on climate change." CNE's president, Stephen Pollard, said: "We did get a payment in 2005 for a project which had nothing to do with climate change." He said under his leadership CNE was "not in the climate change denial business". In a statement ExxonMobil said: "Our support extends to a fairly broad array of organisations that research significant domestic and foreign policy issues and promote discussion on issues of direct relevance to the company." Source |
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Dec 20 2006, 09:10 PM
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Dec 21 2006, 02:36 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,392 Joined: 3-May 05 From: in between black and white Member No.: 2,277 |
Thanks for the artical Faden.
I believe the artical paints a repetious flaw in the way humans have done business on Earth. Could we stop this...well probably by the 11th hour something to nothing (or was it the other way around when playing like god) could happen and that would be dand. Lobbyism seems too fake to me and there no welcoming tone for it today unless your a proponent in some way or another. peace, Austin |
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Dec 21 2006, 04:57 AM
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#3
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![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 180 Joined: 20-August 06 Member No.: 4,827 |
its just sad how greedy some people are, and the means they will go through
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Dec 21 2006, 08:10 AM
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#4
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,338 Joined: 8-April 06 Member No.: 3,971 |
The Guardian
Tuesday September 19, 2006 The Denial Industry For years, a network of fake citizens' groups and bogus scientific bodies has been claiming that science of global warming is inconclusive. They set back action on climate change by a decade. But who funded them? Exxon's involvement is well known, but not the strange role of Big Tobacco. In the first of three extracts from his new book, George Monbiot tells a bizarre and shocking new story. ExxonMobil is the world's most profitable corporation. Its sales now amount to more than $1bn a day. It makes most of this money from oil, and has more to lose than any other company from efforts to tackle climate change. To safeguard its profits, ExxonMobil needs to sow doubt about whether serious action needs to be taken on climate change. But there are difficulties: it must confront a scientific consensus as strong as that which maintains that smoking causes lung cancer or that HIV causes Aids. So what's its strategy? The website Exxonsecrets.org, using data found in the company's official documents, lists 124 organisations that have taken money from the company or work closely with those that have. These organisations take a consistent line on climate change: that the science is contradictory, the scientists are split, environmentalists are charlatans, liars or lunatics, and if governments took action to prevent global warming, they would be endangering the global economy for no good reason. The findings these organisations dislike are labelled "junk science". The findings they welcome are labelled "sound science". Among the organisations that have been funded by Exxon are such well-known websites and lobby groups as TechCentralStation, the Cato Institute and the Heritage Foundation. Some of those on the list have names that make them look like grassroots citizens' organisations or academic bodies: the Centre for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, for example. One or two of them, such as the Congress of Racial Equality, are citizens' organisations or academic bodies, but the line they take on climate change is very much like that of the other sponsored groups. While all these groups are based in America, their publications are read and cited, and their staff are interviewed and quoted, all over the world. By funding a large number of organisations, Exxon helps to create the impression that doubt about climate change is widespread. For those who do not understand that scientific findings cannot be trusted if they have not appeared in peer-reviewed journals, the names of these institutes help to suggest that serious researchers are challenging the consensus. This is not to claim that all the science these groups champion is bogus. On the whole, they use selection, not invention. They will find one contradictory study - such as the discovery of tropospheric cooling, which, in a garbled form, has been used by Peter Hitchens in the Mail on Sunday - and promote it relentlessly. They will continue to do so long after it has been disproved by further work. So, for example, John Christy, the author of the troposphere paper, admitted in August 2005 that his figures were incorrect, yet his initial findings are still being circulated and championed by many of these groups, as a quick internet search will show you. But they do not stop there. The chairman of a group called the Science and Environmental Policy Project is Frederick Seitz. Seitz is a physicist who in the 1960s was president of the US National Academy of Sciences. In 1998, he wrote a document, known as the Oregon Petition, which has been cited by almost every journalist who claims that climate change is a myth. The document reads as follows: "We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan, in December 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind. There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth." Anyone with a degree was entitled to sign it. It was attached to a letter written by Seitz, entitled Research Review of Global Warming Evidence. The lead author of the "review" that followed Seitz's letter is a Christian fundamentalist called Arthur B Robinson. He is not a professional climate scientist. It was co-published by Robinson's organisation - the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine - and an outfit called the George C Marshall Institute, which has received $630,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998. The other authors were Robinson's 22-year-old son and two employees of the George C Marshall Institute. The chairman of the George C Marshall Institute was Frederick Seitz. The paper maintained that: "We are living in an increasingly lush environment of plants and animals as a result of the carbon dioxide increase. Our children will enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life than that with which we now are blessed. This is a wonderful and unexpected gift from the Industrial Revolution." It was printed in the font and format of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences: the journal of the organisation of which Seitz - as he had just reminded his correspondents - was once president. Soon after the petition was published, the National Academy of Sciences released this statement: "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal. The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." But it was too late. Seitz, the Oregon Institute and the George C Marshall Institute had already circulated tens of thousands of copies, and the petition had established a major presence on the internet. Some 17,000 graduates signed it, the majority of whom had no background in climate science. It has been repeatedly cited - by global-warming sceptics such as David Bellamy, Melanie Phillips and others - as a petition by climate scientists. It is promoted by the Exxon-sponsored sites as evidence that there is no scientific consensus on climate change. All this is now well known to climate scientists and environmentalists. But what I have discovered while researching this issue is that the corporate funding of lobby groups denying that manmade climate change is taking place was initiated not by Exxon, or by any other firm directly involved in the fossil fuel industry. It was started by the tobacco company Philip Morris. In December 1992, the US Environmental Protection Agency published a 500-page report called Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking. It found that "the widespread exposure to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) in the United States presents a serious and substantial public health impact. In adults: ETS is a human lung carcinogen, responsible for approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths annually in US non-smokers. In children: ETS exposure is causally associated with an increased risk of lower respiratory tract infections such as bronchitis and pneumonia. This report estimates that 150,000 to 300,000 cases annually in infants and young children up to 18 months of age are attributable to ETS." Had it not been for the settlement of a major class action against the tobacco companies in the US, we would never have been able to see what happened next. But in 1998 they were forced to publish their internal documents and post them on the internet. Within two months of its publication, Philip Morris, the world's biggest tobacco firm, had devised a strategy for dealing with the passive-smoking report. In February 1993 Ellen Merlo, its senior vice-president of corporate affairs, sent a letter to William I Campbell, Philip Morris's chief executive officer and president, explaining her intentions: "Our overriding objective is to discredit the EPA report ... Concurrently, it is our objective to prevent states and cities, as well as businesses, from passive-smoking bans." To this end, she had hired a public relations company called APCO. She had attached the advice it had given her. APCO warned that: "No matter how strong the arguments, industry spokespeople are, in and of themselves, not always credible or appropriate messengers." So the fight against a ban on passive smoking had to be associated with other people and other issues. Philip Morris, APCO said, needed to create the impression of a "grassroots" movement - one that had been formed spontaneously by concerned citizens to fight "overregulation". It should portray the danger of tobacco smoke as just one "unfounded fear" among others, such as concerns about pesticides and cellphones. APCO proposed to set up "a national coalition intended to educate the media, public officials and the public about the dangers of 'junk science'. Coalition will address credibility of government's scientific studies, risk-assessment techniques and misuse of tax dollars ... Upon formation of Coalition, key leaders will begin media outreach, eg editorial board tours, opinion articles, and brief elected officials in selected states." APCO would found the coalition, write its mission statements, and "prepare and place opinion articles in key markets". For this it required $150,000 for its own fees and $75,000 for the coalition's costs. By May 1993, as another memo from APCO to Philip Morris shows, the fake citizens' group had a name: the Advancement of Sound Science Coalition. It was important, further letters stated, "to ensure that TASSC has a diverse group of contributors"; to "link the tobacco issue with other more 'politically correct' products"; and to associate scientific studies that cast smoking in a bad light with "broader questions about government research and regulations" - such as "global warming", "nuclear waste disposal" and "biotechnology". APCO would engage in the "intensive recruitment of high-profile representatives from business and industry, scientists, public officials, and other individuals interested in promoting the use of sound science". By September 1993, APCO had produced a "Plan for the Public Launching of TASSC". The media launch would not take place in "Washington, DC or the top media markets of the country. Rather, we suggest creating a series of aggressive, decentralised launches in several targeted local and regional markets across the country. This approach ... avoids cynical reporters from major media: less reviewing/challenging of TASSC messages." The media coverage, the public relations company hoped, would enable TASSC to "establish an image of a national grassroots coalition". In case the media asked hostile questions, APCO circulated a sheet of answers, drafted by Philip Morris. The first question was: "Isn't it true that Philip Morris created TASSC to act as a front group for it? "A: No, not at all. As a large corporation, PM belongs to many national, regional, and state business, public policy, and legislative organisations. PM has contributed to TASSC, as we have with various groups and corporations across the country." There are clear similarities between the language used and the approaches adopted by Philip Morris and by the organisations funded by Exxon. The two lobbies use the same terms, which appear to have been invented by Philip Morris's consultants. "Junk science" meant peer-reviewed studies showing that smoking was linked to cancer and other diseases. "Sound science" meant studies sponsored by the tobacco industry suggesting that the link was inconclusive. Both lobbies recognised that their best chance of avoiding regulation was to challenge the scientific consensus. As a memo from the tobacco company Brown and Williamson noted, "Doubt is our product since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the mind of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy." Both industries also sought to distance themselves from their own campaigns, creating the impression that they were spontaneous movements of professionals or ordinary citizens: the "grassroots". But the connection goes further than that. TASSC, the "coalition" created by Philip Morris, was the first and most important of the corporate-funded organisations denying that climate change is taking place. It has done more damage to the campaign to halt it than any other body. TASSC did as its founders at APCO suggested, and sought funding from other sources. Between 2000 and 2002 it received $30,000 from Exxon. The website it has financed - JunkScience.com - has been the main entrepot for almost every kind of climate-change denial that has found its way into the mainstream press. It equates environmentalists with Nazis, communists and terrorists. It flings at us the accusations that could justifably be levelled against itself: the website claims, for example, that it is campaigning against "faulty scientific data and analysis used to advance special and, often, hidden agendas". I have lost count of the number of correspondents who, while questioning manmade global warming, have pointed me there. The man who runs it is called Steve Milloy. In 1992, he started working for APCO - Philip Morris's consultants. While there, he set up the JunkScience site. In March 1997, the documents show, he was appointed TASSC's executive director. By 1998, as he explained in a memo to TASSC board members, his JunkScience website was was being funded by TASSC. Both he and the "coalition" continued to receive money from Philip Morris. An internal document dated February 1998 reveals that TASSC took $200,000 from the tobacco company in 1997. Philip Morris's 2001 budget document records a payment to Steven Milloy of $90,000. Altria, Philip Morris's parent company, admits that Milloy was under contract to the tobacco firm until at least the end of 2005. He has done well. You can find his name attached to letters and articles seeking to discredit passive-smoking studies all over the internet and in the academic databases. He has even managed to reach the British Medical Journal: I found a letter from him there which claimed that the studies it had reported "do not bear out the hypothesis that maternal smoking/ passive smoking increases cancer risk among infants". TASSC paid him $126,000 in 2004 for 15 hours' work a week. Two other organisations are registered at his address: the Free Enterprise Education Institute and the Free Enterprise Action Institute. They have received $10,000 and $50,000 respectively from Exxon. The secretary of the Free Enterprise Action Institute is Thomas Borelli. Borelli was the Philip Morris executive who oversaw the payments to TASSC. Milloy also writes a weekly Junk Science column for the Fox News website. Without declaring his interests, he has used this column to pour scorn on studies documenting the medical effects of second-hand tobacco smoke and showing that climate change is taking place. Even after Fox News was told about the money he had been receiving from Philip Morris and Exxon, it continued to employ him, without informing its readers about his interests. TASSC's headed notepaper names an advisory board of eight people. Three of them are listed by Exxonsecrets.org as working for organisations taking money from Exxon. One of them is Frederick Seitz, the man who wrote the Oregon Petition, and who chairs the Science and Environmental Policy Project. In 1979, Seitz became a permanent consultant to the tobacco company RJ Reynolds. He worked for the firm until at least 1987, for an annual fee of $65,000. He was in charge of deciding which medical research projects the company should fund, and handed out millions of dollars a year to American universities. The purpose of this funding, a memo from the chairman of RJ Reynolds shows, was to "refute the criticisms against cigarettes". An undated note in the Philip Morris archive shows that it was planning a "Seitz symposium" with the help of TASSC, in which Frederick Seitz would speak to "40-60 regulators". The president of Seitz's Science and Environmental Policy Project is a maverick environmental scientist called S Fred Singer. He has spent the past few years refuting evidence for manmade climate change. It was he, for example, who published the misleading claim that most of the world's glaciers are advancing, which landed David Bellamy in so much trouble when he repeated it last year. He also had connections with the tobacco industry. In March 1993, APCO sent a memo to Ellen Merlo, the vice-president of Philip Morris, who had just commissioned it to fight the Environmental Protection Agency: "As you know, we have been working with Dr Fred Singer and Dr Dwight Lee, who have authored articles on junk science and indoor air quality (IAQ) respectively ..." Singer's article, entitled Junk Science at the EPA, claimed that "the latest 'crisis' - environmental tobacco smoke - has been widely criticised as the most shocking distortion of scientific evidence yet". He alleged that the Environmental Protection Agency had had to "rig the numbers" in its report on passive smoking. This was the report that Philip Morris and APCO had set out to discredit a month before Singer wrote his article. I have no evidence that Fred Singer or his organisation have taken money from Philip Morris. But many of the other bodies that have been sponsored by Exxon and have sought to repudiate climate change were also funded by the tobacco company. Among them are some of the world's best-known "thinktanks": the Competitive Enterprise Institute, the Cato Institute, the Heritage Foundation, the Hudson Institute, the Frontiers of Freedom Institute, the Reason Foundation and the Independent Institute, as well as George Mason University's Law and Economics Centre. I can't help wondering whether there is any aspect of conservative thought in the United States that has not been formed and funded by the corporations. Until I came across this material, I believed that the accusations, the insults and the taunts such people had slung at us environmentalists were personal: that they really did hate us, and had found someone who would pay to help them express those feelings. Now I realise that they have simply transferred their skills. While they have been most effective in the United States, the impacts of the climate-change deniers sponsored by Exxon and Philip Morris have been felt all over the world. I have seen their arguments endlessly repeated in Australia, Canada, India, Russia and the UK. By dominating the media debate on climate change during seven or eight critical years in which urgent international talks should have been taking place, by constantly seeding doubt about the science just as it should have been most persuasive, they have justified the money their sponsors have spent on them many times over. It is fair to say that the professional denial industry has delayed effective global action on climate change by years, just as it helped to delay action against the tobacco companies. Source |
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Dec 21 2006, 09:48 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,404 Joined: 31-October 06 Member No.: 5,027 |
...It is important to note that the so-called “Skeptics” include Dr. Daniel Schrag of Harvard; Claude Allegre, one of the most decorated French geophysicists; Dr. Richard Lindzen, professor of Atmospheric Sciences, MIT; Dr. Patrick Michaels, University of Virginia: Dr. Fred Singer; Professor Bob Carter, geologist at James Cook University, Australia; 85 scientists and climate experts who signed the 1995 Leipzeg Declaration which called drastic climate controls “ill-advised, lacking credible support from the underlying science; 17,000 scientists and leaders involved in climate study who signed a petition issued by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying there is no evidence green house gasses cause global warming; and the 4,000 scientists and leaders from around the world, including 70 Nobel Prize winners, who signed the Heidelberg Appeal calling greenhouse global warming theories “highly uncertainly scientific theories.”
These are but a few of the highly qualified “skeptics” derided by Jay Rockefeller, Olympia Snowe and Al Gore whom, they say, should not be given a voice on the issue. There are lots of lies surrounding the Global Warming mantra. The biggest one claims there is “consensus” among scientists that human-caused global warming is a fact. There is no such consensus. Human survival demands that we listen to the “Skeptics” before they are burned at the stake by Jay Rockefeller and Olympia Snowe. http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4870 |
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Dec 21 2006, 09:56 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,338 Joined: 8-April 06 Member No.: 3,971 |
Noone, That’s very naive. Are you aware that money talks? The Nazis had some of the best scientists alive at the time, I am not comparing the sceptics with Nazis, but making a comparison on how educated someone is doesn’t mean they are going to be on the most moral of sides. When it comes to money and wanting to get the public on side, even when its complete bullcrap, how qualified the people used are is irrelevant, As I said money talks.
There are also just as many respected and qualified scientists that are not sceptics and believe its human inflicted. And strangely enough the ones who see the obvious facts are ones who have the most respect for nature and the earth. |
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Dec 21 2006, 10:21 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,404 Joined: 31-October 06 Member No.: 5,027 |
You'd think, but sadly no. Political agendas (the green party is nothing but a communist platform) are every bit as powerful as monetary agendas. There's good reason to question the global warming proponents. I'm not saying global warming doesn't exist, but the question is legitimate on the causes.
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Dec 21 2006, 12:20 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,933 Joined: 14-January 04 Member No.: 197 |
Lets just blame the cows.
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Dec 21 2006, 12:25 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,404 Joined: 31-October 06 Member No.: 5,027 |
(trog;301024) Lets just blame the cows.
Well yeah, according to the recent UN official report. |
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Dec 21 2006, 01:45 PM
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Registered User Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 16-November 06 Member No.: 5,087 |
I can't believe that people are even debating this issue. Ofcourse something is happening. Here I am sitting at home in southern Ontario, Canada. Its 5 celcius in December! As a kid, I remember having snow up to my eye balls right about now. We haven't had this for the last 15 years.
AS for the cause? Ohh I don't know...how about a huge increase in the amount of CO2, the cutting down of rain forests etc... These are all human activities. Please don't be an IDIOT. Global Warming is happening and we do know what the cause is. Question is, can we admit its our SUV type lifestyle? I can and so should you. Take a trip to mainland China to see just how industrial pollution and a lack of environmental laws improves the environment. Or you could say I have no proof pollution is caused by industry. Cheers |
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Dec 21 2006, 02:10 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,404 Joined: 31-October 06 Member No.: 5,027 |
Sorry, not all of us are 'IDIOTS'. The debate isn't over, it's only just begun, especially in light of the new UN study: http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/ke...ad/A0701E00.htm
They are putting forward that methane, not CO2 does most of the damage to the atmosphere. There are no doubts at all that pollution is harming local environments, and humans are responsible for over-fishing, and other damage to the planetary ecosystems (up to & including the ranching industry), but no one knows long-term effects. I'n not even in favor of continuing fossil fuels for any longer than neccessary, and have no love for the oil industry, but there is still much we have to learn as to what exactly our impact on the planet amounts to. I mean... jeez-louise!... Volcanoes spit out more toxins, gasses & pollution in the space of a few hours than humans can muster in many years. The earth wobbles in it's orbit from time to time, not a constant at all, the sun increases in activity and warms the planet without OUR interference, and has done so for millions of years. I think it's a little early to say that petrol emissions are the main cause of an ancient, intermittent problem. |
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Dec 21 2006, 02:40 PM
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Registered User Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 16-November 06 Member No.: 5,087 |
Damn it just got called into work, will have to reply later! But it my view...Opinions are like A-Holes and everyone has got one. My other view is that indeed we are idiots. To many examples to list to prove my point.
Cheers |
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Dec 21 2006, 06:19 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,756 Joined: 16-January 04 Member No.: 205 |
(Faeden;301012) Noone, That’s very naive. Are you aware that money talks?
Quite right. Are you aware that the generation of alarmism by climate scientists has become a multi-billion dollar industry? Two people can play at the poisoning-the-well game. CO2 is a minor greenhouse gas. Alone it causes only a small warming effect. The only way that it is tied to catastrophic warming is through feedback mechanisms in complex (and inaccurate, according to measurements) computer models of the climate. Ofcourse something is happening. Here I am sitting at home in southern Ontario, Canada. Its 5 celcius in December! As a kid, I remember having snow up to my eye balls right about now. We haven't had this for the last 15 years.
It is idiotic to infer a global trend from what is happening in your locality. You may have observed changes toward warmer weather in your lifetime. This ignores multiple instances of measured cooling trends in many localities around the globe and recent instances of record cold. The warming alarmists themselves will claim that the global mean surface temperature has risen about 0.6 degrees centigrade since the late 19th century, nothing even close the 'obvious' 5+ degree rise that you seem to think that everybody should have observed. We had no spring this year in this country, it was just too cold. |
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Dec 21 2006, 07:12 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,338 Joined: 8-April 06 Member No.: 3,971 |
Andrew let me ask you this.
Lets say climate change is happening for my following questions sake, but we don’t actually know what’s causing it, nature it self, or human activities. Is it better to do the following. Just assume its nature and there is nothing we can do about it, just suffer the chaos we have coming to us and cope as best we can without acting to change it. Or Assume its caused by humans or hope it is, and do something about the activity that humans are doing that is causing it….. That way you get either the same effect as the first do nothing solution, or if it is human activities save millions of humans and animal lives, and maybe even the planet. Now what’s better a scaremonger "Alarmist" that is forcing people psychologically to act on saving the planet which may well work, or someone who assumes its just nature and there is nothing we can do about it, so we doomed either way? I know what one looks more logical and hopeful to me. |
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Dec 21 2006, 08:18 PM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,881 Joined: 17-May 04 Member No.: 668 |
Exxon can do all the bribes they like, they still are irrelevant to the majority...We know about them dont we.....Australia has finally admitted the role humans are playing in the warming of the globe.A U.S. scientist was gagged as well, luckily congress allowed him to talk...
The new word though isnt global warming..It is called "Global dimming"..Some global dimming scientists claim that Europe and particualrly Russia are already In a mini Ice-age. Totally dry in some countries, (such as Australia-where the 5yr drought is really starting to dry up the entire continent) completely frozen in others...(such as Russia where the temps were -56 in certain places... |
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Dec 22 2006, 07:17 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,404 Joined: 31-October 06 Member No.: 5,027 |
(Faeden;301071) Just assume its nature and there is nothing we can do about it, just suffer the chaos we have coming to us and cope as best we can without acting to change it.
Or Assume its caused by humans or hope it is, and do something about the activity that humans are doing that is causing it….. That way you get either the same effect as the first do nothing solution, or if it is human activities save millions of humans and animal lives, and maybe even the planet. Now what’s better a scaremonger "Alarmist" that is forcing people psychologically to act on saving the planet which may well work, or someone who assumes its just nature and there is nothing we can do about it, so we doomed either way? I know what one looks more logical and hopeful to me. I understand your logic. The question is, will it hurt, or cripple the world's economy to take drastic mis-steps, trying to fix something that has minimal effect? Wouldn't it be better to find out man's true roll, and then impement the neccessary changes? We know there's things humans can do to not only help protect the environment, but become more efficient, which is something we need to do in our own evolutionary path. I agree that some changes need to come definitely, though. |
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Dec 22 2006, 07:52 AM
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,338 Joined: 8-April 06 Member No.: 3,971 |
Well without a planet the economy means absolutely nothing. So its in the capitalists interest to insure the planet survives too. Well you would think so.
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Dec 22 2006, 08:13 AM
Post
#18
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