Ok sharpen your knives....

40 years I've been investigating UFO's - 40 goddam years. And you know what? There's something to it - there really is a case to be made for extraterrestrial life having visited earth.

However - there's some things which emerge during the course of looking into the subject which HAVE TO BE SAID - CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED - ARE AN INTEGRAL PART OF UFO RESEARCH!

Most (and yes I do emphasise most) people who are 'into' the subject have issues...yes they do...big issues....but do they ever include those issues as part of the UFO equation? Nope they don't. Has it never struck you as odd that most who claim to have been abducted have also been on anti-depressant medication? Does it not strike you as odd that they've been treated by psychiatrists or psychologists or been beaten over the head with a big stick? Does it not strike you as odd the number of believers who acknowledge they have a neurological disorder? Is that the same profile as folks who follow Baseball? Soccer? Who believe in God? Who believe in Hell? Who believe in Republicanism? No it's not..no it's not - I'll repeat it - No it's not....so who's gonna step forward and address the central issue in the whole UFO phenomena? Not UFO'S per se - but the TYPE of person who believes and why that should be? What does it mean?????

People who 'believe' are usually fucked up in some sort of fundamental way - now does that mean that they are fucked up because of some alien intervention or the reverse? I dunno - but the longer we pussyfoot around the issue of WHO believes and WHY they believe, the longer this subject will remain the fringe laughing stock that it is -

Somebody somewhere do the research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ben

Of course there is a wide range in believing in extraterrestrials.

There is the "We most likely are not the only Planet which sustains life" (past, present or future)
There is the "I've seen something which I just cannot explain, but it was really weird."
There is the "Aliens came and took me from my bedroom."
There is the "Anything is inherently possible since this reality is really not what it seems, anyway."

Are we talking about simple abduction theory?

No I'm talking about those who gravitate toward the subject...don't get me wrong there are sound, sane, rational and scientifically minded people who take the whole phenomena very, very seriously indeed.....but the rest are wacko's - I mean that - I've sat here in the control room at this place for almost 6 years now and banned so many crazies who 'believe' - as well as allowed so many 'crazies' to post that if you asked me (AND I MEAN THIS SINCERELY) What is the one 'constant' that can be extrapolated from the UFO phenomena? It would be that the majority of folks who pursue it are nuts.

That doesn't mean everyone is - but there's something about this subject matter which draws vulnerable, disadvantaged and ill people toward it - God knows what it is - but I wish I did know because that in itself is meaningful....

Ben

I can see what your trying to get at Ben, but after all this time you should realise by now that you are in essence flogging a dead horse.....people will believe what they want to believe and we just cannot no matter how hard we try change that belief.....

I know what ya mean Fen - I just wish sometimes that the crazies would back off and stop polluting the subject with nonsense....it makes it murkier and murkier until you reach a point where what you're looking at bears no resemblance to anything which represents reality...

Ben

I mean serious disscussion is no longer possible with 3/4 of what is posted and half is just plain laughable....

And it's the same story over and over, if you don't believe it your closed minded, yada yada yada you know what i mean, it has ruined what used to be a good field of interest and worthy of investigation and just turned it into a joke.....

Nice one for putting this out there Ben!

I agree to a certian extent, there is some strange people out there, some would probably say I am, it is funny seeing some of the crazyness unfold sometimes though.

Maybe the crazies as you call them are looking for the answers to there own life problems and this one seems to fit? I dont know, but if that is the case, then I guess I belong with the crazies cause I know what I saw wasnt a plane or a bird, or a satelite. Everyone is looking for answers some where . But I do agree with Ben , there really is some very odd people who have attached themselves to this subject. You have to decide for yourself who is crazier. But, I dont believe most are crazy just because they believe. I think that statement is hurtful and very misleading. My opinion only.

I have to refrain from posting in alot of threads sometimes.. I tend to want to desperately go and bang my head against the nearest brick wall.

Some people are SO into the fantasy of UFO's and aliens I truelly believe it takes over their lives. Some live the fantasy so long I also believe it becomes truth and they feel justified to spout 'facts' when there just are no proven scientific facts. Most people want solid proof. Truth is there just isn't any - but does that mean we dismiss the more out-there stories? Obviously I'm not talking about the extremely ludicrous claims I've read here sometimes.

On the other hand, I believe I HAVE seen one myself - (yes it was an unidentified flying object...) and I've had extremely wierd supernatural experiences.. am I crazy?? And do I have any right to give advice or state facts, in my opinion from my experiences? I've seen some darn freaky shit. But does that make me able to comment about such things without really knowing any scientific explanations?

Ben, I take it that this is the 'raw' version of 'when the light appears'? :cheers:

I'm behind you on this one. It's like I've said over and over: there are some genuine phenomena and experiences that are worth pursuing, but so often they get lost in the endless ranting of people who believe in things that are not grounded in facts.

You've seen how I've murdered two threads in the conspiracy forums just by taking people's evidence and turning it on them. Why? Because their 'evidence' is false, and therefore their beliefs are based on false assumptions. However, no matter how many times I've provided proof that refutes the 'theory of the week', they ignore it and ask for more proof. No matter how many times I ask THEM for proof, they either give me misinterpreted data (such as the misconstrued photos on the 'Entrance to Inner Earth' thread), or they tell me that they HAD solid proof, but it's now gone, or they tell me that they HAVE proof, but I'm not worthy to see it. Furthermore, it doesn't matter how many times I knock down these 'house of cards' theories, they just answer: "Well ... this is what I BELIEVE!" There you have it, Ben. I TALK about facts and evidence, and I HEAR about feelings and beliefs.

The thing is, so many people here have told me: "I've had a genuine experience! I wasn't asleep! I was abducted by aliens, and I remember the whole thing ..." and on and on. No photographs. No recordings. No video (other than grainy, blurry, jumpy photos of lights in the sky. I mean, if they're on such friendly terms with ET, how come they can't get video of a flying saucer sitting in the back yard?) Not one person has come forward with an alien handkerchief. You mean out of the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of first-hand face-to-face encounters with aliens, not ONE person ever got a souvenir? DARN! ET's a cheapskate! But when I bring this up, what do they say? "Hey! These are my FEELINGS I'm talkin' about! This is what I BELIEVE!"

But ... whatcha gonna do, eh?

Just because one has FACTS, doesnt always mean there facts are right. Just because you believe it comes from a trustful source , doesnt mean its all truth. Alot of people believe what they believe is because it happens to them. Ok, some or alot can be total bull shit made in there heads. But , it's not right to say they are wrong because if you arent there , then how can you say its BS? There alot of things that happen that have no reason to happen, but it doesnt make it wrong. I cant prove some things that happen to me and my family , does that make us liars? Hell no it doesnt, I feel it makes us more aware and we keep a level head about it and go from there. I have always stated that no two people are going to agree on any thing , but it still doesnt make either one right or wrong. There is so much crap on computers today , its hard to decide what is true and what is false. Dont toss it out just because you have no proof. Proof is subject to be determined by each one of us based on our own experiences. I say this because I got info about a subject and trusted it because of the source and found out it was all BS. Trust your instincts , not what you so much as read . Trust yourself.

Ben, you have studied this subject almost as long as I.
Anything that is labeled paranormal or fringe science or any Fortean subject will attract nut cases.
They are distraction, nuisance and make it difficult to find and know the truth sometimes.
The worst in my opinion is the hoaxed and fabricated videos.
I have got to the point ,were it would take a team of well respected photographic experts verifying a video or photo is genuine before I would trust it.
Research for specifically what, BEN?
You should know that there are many genises that are eccentric, compulsive and often considered, a little off base.
In short, not all nutties are the same.
I would like to see a more in depth study of the people who make abduction & close encounter claims.
It would help us to eliminate many more of the nut cases, but there will always be those clever ones who will get through.
It is mostly up to people like us to figure them out for ourselves.

I agree with a lot of the things you say: but in my case, the facts I'm talking about were pretty solid. If they're not solid, I say so. I don't deny the existence of UFOs, or alien abduction. In fact, the only thing I'm really against is when people don't think. However, I respect what you say because obviously you ARE a thinking person. So cheers to you. If you want to see my idea of facts, take a look at my recent posts under the 9/11 conspiracy thread and 'photos showing the entrance to Inner Earth'. I look at photographic evidence and technical data, then ask questions. However, as you say, nothing is 100% foolproof, and there are things that seem reasonable on the surface, but make no sense when you think about it.

There's a great scene in Douglas Adams' "The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul" where a woman goes to a special home for people with unusual mental health problems. There she meets a girl who spends every waking moment and most of her sleeping moments reciting the moment-by-moment changes in the stock market prices ... of the day before. The 'warden' has concluded that she must be faking it, since the information is freely available. His logic is basically sound on the surface: the information is freely available, therefore the girl must have access to it, therefore she's a fraud. However, when you think about it, it doesn't really explain WHY the girl is reciting stock market prices, or how she managed to keep up with the changes throughout the day.

Sometimes the paranormal is the same.

I've had paranormal experiences. I have absolutely ZERO proof. I watched a ghost for over an hour and never thought to run back to my room for a camera. But still, I had those experiences. Does that make me insane? Perhaps a little bit.

I think Ben asks a good question when he asks: Do they see things because they're mentally troubled, or are they mentally troubled because they see things? It's sort of a chicken and the egg conundrum. Perhaps the mental disorders allow them to process paranormal sensory input that other people are immune to. Who knows? Many ancient cultures considered that the insane were on a higher-level of consciousness and therefore in contact with Gods and Spirits ... however I usually just assumed that was that culture's way of making people feel important and useful.

I hope you didn't take my post as an attack. I was just saying my thoughts, nothing personal. I can feel you dig for your truth and I am the same, was just saying not all so call facts are true . Sorry, if I offended you.

LOL! Hi there. Who says that the majority have issues? Maybe the majority of hoaxers but who says the majority who are into or have experienced UFOs have issues? Maybe only those with issues come forward about their experiences and "normal" people keep quiet about it, refuse to believe it or block it out because they don't want to sound crazy. There's no way to measure how many people really experience UFOs when everyone has been trained/brainwashed to view those who talk about it as crazy. That's the very reason why mostly those who are already "crazy" mention it, they have nothing to lose! Since discussing UFOs is such a taboo subject there's no telling how many "normal" people experience it but don't want to talk about it and even deny it.

Maybe it's just that that group are the only ones who come to a UFO forum to post crazy stuff, the majority could be silent believers who don't post on forums. Maybe UFO forums just attract more loonies than "normal" people even though normal people could make up the majority of UFO followers/believers.

A police officer who arrests people all day for crimes will feel like the majority of people commit crimes because the majority of people he comes in contact with are criminals. But in actuality it's just that his job atttracts and deals with criminals. The majority who are law abiding citizens stay home quiet never seen or heard from. Maybe that's what's going on with you, because YOU deal with the nuts so much it makes you feel like most UFO believers are nuts. Your experience may not accurately reflect what's going on.

Here Here.. I absolutely agree with both Fen and Ben. I wish, Ben, you comments would have been posted about 12 months ago.... They are long over due.

I think, Liselle and others, it is important to point out the distinguishable difference between the UFO phenomena and the Alien phenomena. We know that UFOs exist... We just do not know what they can be attributed to. Aliens existing, and abducting people, now that is unprovable and Ben's remarks are certainly worth noting when it comes to this topic.

Papermoon, I see your reasoning, but it is a bit flawed. Just because a police officer sees and deals with criminals all day... it would be a huge leap for that police officer to think the "majority" of people are criminals. Actually, I believe they think the opposite. They know, because of their logic and intelligence, that not all people are criminals based on their line of work. Ben is the same way. That's like saying all doctors think the majority of us have physical ailments, or people who drive alot, think most of the people on the streets are going to have a wreck.... It simply is not the case... people are smarter than that.

The question is, are these people( the ones on antidepressants, have neurological disorders or treated by psychaitrists) this way before their claimed experience or after?
Is it a result of their experience? Or did it create it?