I confess that I'm not an ardent supporter of Tectonic Stress Theory as an explanation for UFO's - I do however acknowledge huge advances made by the work of Professor Michael Persinger and Research Fellow Paul Devereux of Princeton University.

I really do want to use this thread for discussing Tectonic Strain Theory (and my own idea that electromagnetism is responsible for hallucinatory episodes including the MAJORITY of alien abduction accounts and UFO sightings).

First of all - anyone familiar with the theory?

Ben

Link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Persinger

Question:


Rutkowski makes some good points. Any thoughts?

Specifically:



and



Curious.

Yeah They seem like good points at first sight - (And actually they may well be) - I do want to pre warn the reader however that if they access the page for Persinger listed in Wikipedia it neither has sources nor references and does not meet Wikipedia's editorial standards. After reading it I was left with the impression it was less about Persinger and more about destroying his credibility. That aside however the points you raise are valid in the sense that they demand an answer.

I would argue over what's meant by 'everywhere lies within 200miles of active seismic activity' - as a generalisation yeah it's true but I would expect 'degrees' of activity and degrees of intensity and if TSC stands up to scrutiny then I would expect 'degrees' of reporting alien or UFO encounters....I'm currently trying to work that one out right now funnily enough....

Just for your info Kirin - what prompted me to visit the whole TSC thing again was the Earthquake in the Indian Ocean of 2004 - which of course led to such a devastating and deadly Tsunami.

I'd read of TSC prior to that and largely thought it really had no bearing on the UFO phenomena - but the night before the earthquake, and during the earthquake (remember the Tsunami came hours later) I was posting on this forum that people all around the Pacific rim were reporting seeing strange lights in the sky, (Those posts should still be here). In fact one group of islanders were so panic stricken at the intensity of the lights in the sky that the army was mobilised and sent there as a matter of urgency. I will endeavour to track those posts down and include them in this thread.

The points made about the weaknesses in TSC you make above (as I have said) are valid - but I'm currently looking at ways to find a way around them - remember I don't think TSC is the whole story But I think Persinger has opened a door, gave us a foothold if you will and the only way is up. He's not got it right but he's on the right track.....

I'll post more tomorrow - forgive me but it's Super Soccer Saturday and Man Utd are Playing Arsenal soon - Contrary to popular belief Aliens and UFO's do not rule my life lol

Ben

One interesting side note to this theory is that electromagnetic anomalies are also implicated in ghost research. I wonder if there is a correlation there ...

However, Ben ... Ben! Haven't you considered the obvious? Fault lines go deep into the earth. Perhaps the legions of Inner Earth are responsible!

Sorry, bad me. Couldn't resist.

I'd honestly be interested in more research about the affect on human perception that electromagnetic interference can have. I think there's a lot to ponder here.

Well I'll make two posts in a row here Kirin - the first is the rather dry words of Persinger himself on the spatial relationships in his data....sorry it is dry lol...

Since 1979, approximately 25 technical articles have been published that support the validity of the TST as an explanation for most reports within UFO or ALP data bases from a number of different places. There have been two major approaches to the problem. The first involves "local" episodes of reports within a diameter of 50-100 km; they include the Salisbury Uinta Basin episode during 1967 (Persinger & Derr, 1985a), the Long-Vogel-Akers Toppenish Ridge Sightings between 1973 and 1977 (Derr & Persinger, 1986), the Rutkowski Carman, Manitoba occurrences between 1974 and 1977 (Persinger & Derr, 1985b), the Rutledge New Madrid field study of 1973 (Persinger, 1988a) and the Zeitoun, Egypt phenomena that were reported during the years 1968 and 1969 (Derr & Persinger, 1989a).

The second approach involves larger areas of space. These analyses have included the central-eastern U.S.A. record between 1945 and 1966 (Persinger, 1980; 1981a; 1983a), the Washington-Oregon analyses (Persinger & Derr, 1984), the Charles Fort United Kingdom period between 1850 and 1920 (Persinger, 1983c), the New Madrid Region 1945-1977 analyses (Persinger, 1981b, 1983b), the 1965 to 1977 Swedish series (Mattsson & Persinger, 1986), the central U.S.A. 1947 to 1966 period (Derr & Persinger, 1990) and the Rio Grande Rift (New Mexico-Colorado) area (Derr and Persinger, 1989b; Persinger & Derr, 1990). With the exception of the United Kingdom, New Madrid Region and Mattsson sources, the data for these analyses were obtained from the Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS).

Initially the analyses involved numbers of UFO reports and numbers of different intensity (Mercalli) earthquakes per unit time. In response to suggestions by John Derr and Chris Rutkowski, two major shifts in conceptualization have been employed. First, measures of seismic energy release replaced the use of numbers of earthquakes. The reasoning was simple. Release of seismic energy is more theoretically related to strain release than the numbers of earthquakes. If UFO reports are related to strain, then changes in their occurrence must be related to the amount of seismic energy release. Secondly, discriminative validity was pursued. Although most UFO reports are likely to be natural, geophysical phenomena, data bases are probably heterogeneous collections of human experiences. By differentiating between likely sources of ambiguous observations from more robust descriptions, in a manner similar to the strangeness scale employed by David Saunders for the CUFOS data, classic UFOs and ALP should be most correlated with indices of seismicity.

For the local studies, three major questions were asked: 1) is there a significant correlation between earthquake numbers (or energy release) and the numbers of UFO reports?, 2) what is the distance of earthquakes that are most correlated with UFO reports? and 3) what is the temporal relationship between the occurrence of the UFO reports and the occurrence of the seismic energy release? To minimize the problems that occur by including the extremes of temporal distributions of data, most analyses were completed for the intervals in which the cumulative numbers of UFO reports were relatively linear. Usually approximately 90% of the reports within a collection occurred within this period.

Increments of one month have been used primarily because the duration of the data bases were relatively brief, i.e., in the order of years. The numbers of earthquakes (or the amount of energy release) per month was compared with the numbers of UFO reports or ALP per month. To determine the optimal distance of earthquake inclusion, correlational analyses were completed that incorporated earthquake measures from successively increasing distances from the focus of UFO reports until the magnitude of the correlation coefficient peaked and then deteriorated. Determination of the optimal temporal relationship between numbers of UFO reports and earthquakes was completed by the lag-lead procedure. Multiple regressions were completed between the seismic measures per month and the numbers of UFO reports or ALPs the same month or each of the three months before or afterwards.

The second approach utilized much larger areas. Numbers of UFO reports or ALP per six month increment (usually January-June, July-December) were correlated with the numbers of earthquakes or the amount of energy released during the same increment and for each of three increments before and afterwards. For control analyses, seismicity of the surrounding area was often included. Contrary to the critique of Rutkowski (1984) and Rutkowski and Del Bigio (1989), all of these procedures include routine analyses and are neither complicated nor contrived; they do require a rudimentary understanding of problem solving. Over the last 10 years the following major patterns have been found.


Ben

And the one I suspect you will prefer lol

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Ben

There you have it, Ben. Through the first of these two posts, you have unwittingly proved my point. Aliens cause seismic disturbances. Thank you, Ben.

Just kidding around, again. Sorry.

Actually, to respond, the first one I thought was really well thought out. This is obviously the abstract from his research wherein he talks about data collection and analysis. Very interesting indeed. I like the refutation of Rutkowski there.

As to the second one, this is also interesting. If you want to look at it from another perspective: does this mean, as you posted earlier (though I think you were lamenting that people focus on this rather than on the actual point of the research), that we could theoretically be influenced by outside electromagnetic sources?

Could this be our 'radio' through which we talk to supernatural beings?

You've already talked about electromagnetic disturbances from seismic activity. Seismic activity, of course, occurs deep within the earth. God, on the other hand, is said to exist in heaven ... OMG, Ben! You've just proven that our religious ecstasies are being manipulated by SATAN!

Sorry, again, Ben! Just being flippant.

Both of those are really interesting. I would be interested in how such a Persinger apparatus might do in a sensory deprivation tank.

Also interesting is Prof. Dawkins. As an atheist, is it possible that he carries a degree of immunity to Persinger's helmet because the parts of his brain that respond to the electromagnetic stimulation are less-well-developed? Could this be linked to his atheism? Could people who are hyper-religious, who have religious ecstasies and visions, have an OVER-sensitivity to EM wave stimulation? Could there be a correlation between those having religious ecstasies and visions and those having pseudo-religious ecstasies and visions in which God has been replaced by aliens?

There are correlations between the states: sensed presences, illumination, a feeling of being special and chosen, telepathic communication, etc.

TV and Radio waves are a form of EM radiation. Are we just tuning the Sci-Fi channel with our brains? Dear God, what happens to people who tune the Country Music Channel?

How about the cult New York singer (Italian descent I think) Antony and the Johnsons singing Cripple and The Starfish at the Knitting Factory?

Good enough?

Dingo
.

Here is a quick link to the recent Condign Report from the UK, which, according to this good summary by Isaac Koi, whom we know from here at AU, says how the Condign says some things about "plasmas", "earth lights" being the lights seen in some UFO sightings:

link to Condign report:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Fr...ceReg ion.htm

Koi's summary at site "UFO Evidence", from which I got the above link to the report itself:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...=us& ie=UTF-8

Would someone provide me with a brief explanation of what "tectonic stress theory" is?

Unidentified flying objects (UFOs) are contemporary terms that have been applied primarily to anomalous luminous phenomena (ALP). They display odd movements, emit unusual colors or sounds and occasionally deposit physical residues. When these phenomena closely approach a human observer, exotic forces and perceptions are frequently reported. Most ALPs display life times in the order of minutes and appear to show spatial dimensions in the order of meters. Despite their remarkably similar descriptions over time and across cultures, the transience and localized occurrence of these phenomena have limited their systematic investigation.

Explanations for these phenomena have ranged from social misperceptions and delusions to some variant of mystical or extraterrestrial intelligence. However the only testable concept that has been formulated to date is the Tectonic Strain Theory or TST. It states that most UFO phenomena (not due to frank misobservation) are natural events, generated by stresses and strains within the earth's crust. The phrase "most UFO phenomena" is emphasized because the primary measurement is still human observation and classification. Due to their limitations, overinclusion of events or experiences that are not coupled to tectonic stress or strain are expected. Highly unlikely but nonetheless possible episodes of extraterrestrial sources could be contained within that residual.

The TST was originated from inductive rather than deductive processes; the data themselves revealed the principle that allowed the development of the theory. Between 1969 and 1972 the several thousands of events referenced by Charles Fort were designated to several dozens of categories (Persinger, 1976; Persinger and Lafreniere, 1977). Because we assumed that transient, anomalous and dynamic phenomena required substantial sources of energy, measures of intense displays such as tornadoes, earthquakes and weather extremes were included in the analyses. The most consistent and strongest correlations in time and space occurred between what Fort had labelled "luminous phenomena" and the numbers of earthquakes. At about the same time we were completing these analyses, Paul Devereux had begun his field research and John Derr had focused upon the intriguing problem of earthquake lights.

A basic scientific motive, the understanding of nature and of the hidden mechanisms within it, has stimulated the development of the TST; it was never intended to serve a debunking function. The pursuit also has been encouraged by the prospect of practical application. If ALP are indices of tectonic strain and it generates earthquakes, then the possibility existed that some form of ALP, such as UFO reports, could be used to help forecast the locality or occurrence of earthquakes. A necessary consideration of the TST, although not directly related to its verification, is the consequences of both ALP and the beliefs concerning their origins upon human behavior and attitudes. They are often as important to scientific discovery as the physical principles themselves.

Because tectonic stress is never zero, UFO reports can occur anywhere but should occur more frequently in geological regions undergoing increases in stress accumulation.

Because stress accumulation occurs gradually over time and then is associated with a sudden release, most UFO reports should precede increases in earthquake activity; in those areas in which strain continues to occur after a quake, UFO reports could also occur but their numbers should be diminished unless another major release of energy is imminent.

http://www.shaktitechnology.com/tectonic.htm#Introduction

Ben

I have to qulaify some of what I've said....I don't believe for a second that TST explains 'Tin things' as I like to call them. It does help to explain those 'flaps' we get where exraordinary lights appear in the sky, including flames, and of course moving at times and witnessed by hundreds. I repeat that I only remembered this old theory when I was reminded that it happened on a huge scale prior to the tragic earthquake/Tsunami of 2004.

Ben

An interesting aside Ben, is that I’ve been living on top of the San Andreas fault (a rather large and very active fault in California [CA], USA) for quite some time and I have not experienced any of these phenom.
Nor is there much in the way of People in the area (Palm Springs, CA USA et al) reporting said phenom.
This is significant to me in that one of the first big UFO conventions to be held annually (now discontinued) was held in Landers CA, (relatively near me) and there were no significant reports of this phenom reported by the ‘believers’.
Joshua Tree National Park (also on the fault) holds annual ‘Starry Nights’ conventions and not much is reported during these events either.

The high desert is home to some events that draw People from all over the World (rock climbing events etc) and again, I have not heard much from these folks reporting this phenom in the papers, on blogs etc… Curious at least… ~rore

I'm not so sure that Earth Lights (Min Min Lights) as some call them is always what people see when they say they see a UFO... In Australia here we call that phenomen Min Min Lights... (I've seen them a few of times over the years). However people (outback ones) here seem to differentiate between UFO's and Min Min lights, meaning when you see a Min Min Light many who have seen them know they aren't UFOs as such... they can be quite 'spooky' in that they can appear to move with you... they do all sorts of weird things and all they are is an Optical Phenomena...

For an explanation of these lights here they offer up Paul Deveraux's explanation and a Qld Profesor Jack Pettigrewhas offered up an explanation for these lights too... He was also able to recreate them for himself using car lights... In the outback even car lights can appear to 'float' above the horizon and they appear and disappear as they go along depending which was they turn , airflow etc...

I've seen that and it's so so weird to see something move like that and eventually figure out it was headlights of a car or a truck... Same as a distant moutain range in the outback (Fata Morgana)... a mirage... it can appear to be cut off from the earth and can appear to be floating above the horizon...

Mystery of the Min Min lights explained
An Australian neuroscientist claims he can conjure up the mysterious Australian outback phenomenon of the Min Min lights, now that he has worked out what causes them. Professor Jack Pettigrew, of the University of Queensland in Brisbane claims the lights are actually an inverted mirage of light sources which are, in some cases, hundreds of kilometres away over the horizon.

The work was published in the current issue of Clinical and Experimental Optometry. Pettigrew studied the phenomenon in the Channel Country, Western Queensland, where he said it has been disturbing the locals for many years.

'I talked to old timers out there who had seen it and they were terrified by it," he told ABC Science Online. 'It’s a bit embarrassing for them because hardened outback men can be brought to tears by this thing. It really is quite alarming'

“Just imagine you were sitting in your living room and a light appeared hovering in the middle of the room and as you moved your head to try and see the cause of the light, the light moved with you.”

When Pettigrew first encountered the Min Min he thought it was the planet Venus: 'But it didn’t set. It went down to the horizon and then sat on the horizon for some time.'

On a later occasion while driving with colleagues, the three saw what they thought was the eyeshine of a cat about 50 metres in front of their vehicle. However when they stopped and turned out the headlights, it was still there, bobbing around as if it had a life of its own.

'We had a big argument – no one could agree what it was and how far away it was.'

Pettigrew and his two companions drove across the plains and used a car compass to work out how far away the light was, but had to drive five kilometres before there was any change in the direction of the compass.

'We calculated it was over 300 km away which was over the horizon,' Pettigrew said.

They later found out there had been a car driving straight towards them at the time they had seen the light.

Fata Morgana (picture included on website)
Pettigrew - who been reading about the Fata Morgana in which landforms that are beyond the horizon appear to float above it in an inverted form - thought this might help explain the Min Min lights.

Such mirages are caused by a temperature inversion, where cold dense air is trapped next to the ground under a layer of warmer air. A certain shape of temperature inversion will mean that light near the ground will be refracted in such a way that it travels in a curved path around the globe.

'It’s like the way light travels in a fibre optic, no matter which way you bend the fibre,' he said. 'The light is being carried hundreds of kilometres by this layer of air that traps the light and stops it from being dispersed.'

To test his theory that Min Min lights were actually a night-time phenomenon caused by the same factors that cause Fata Morgana, Pettigrew then set out to demonstrate he could produce one.

'I actually created a Min Min,' he said.

First he chose a night which had the right weather conditions: a cool evening following a hot day with little wind. He then drove 10 kilometres away over a slight rise into a watercourse, below the normal line of site of such a distant light. Six observers witnessed the light of the car float above the horizon, Pettigrew reports.

Fata Morgana
In the light of the morning after the demonstration, Pettigrew said there was a spectacular Fata Morgana of a distant mountain range, which supported the idea that the Min Min had been due to the specific atmospheric conditions at the time.

'A mountain range that was normally not visible [because it was over the horizon] floated up off the horizon and gradually got dissected by fingers of blue sky, which finally sunk below the horizon as the sun warmed the air.'

The chances of seeing Min Min and Fata Morgana are higher in the Channel Country because it is flat with gentle hollows, where cold air is particularly likely to get trapped, and because there is usually a clear view of the horizon.

Anna Salleh - ABC Science Online

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s818193.htm

Dingo
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I'm gonna come back to this later Dingo - because you posted some really good points....and I'll pick up on yours too Rore!

Ben

Thanks for the MinMin Lights, Dingo. That's real interesting and new to me.

Yes, for me too, the first "earth lights", "plasmas as UFOs" things I ever heard were about the work of Paul Devereaux in the early 90s.

Here's a quick Wiki on the well-known (in the US, anyway) Marfa, Texas lights and it mentions the Hessdalen, Norway lights too. I have read the big Hessdalen Lights project (remote cameras, sensors, etc. to try and find out what the lights are) is still on in Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfa_lights

The passage is verbose, pretentious garbage and not at all brief. So I gather, if I was able to follow correctly, that the hypothesis is that along faults light is, by some unspecified mechanism, shone into the air? If so, it is a fairly elaborate explanation for what can only account for a small proportion of claimed UFO sightings.

I dunno about pretentious or garbage but I'd agree it is verbose and explains only a limited amount of UFO sightings - but given the paucity of conclusions on so many sightings, I would have thought that ANY explanation which can be verified time and time again by scientific means would be welcome, not pilloried.

Since when did an elaborate explanation deem something less worthy of credibility than a simple one?

I'll write to him and see if he can simplify it somewhat

Ben

They truely are fascinating these Min Min Lights and they feature quite a lot in Aboriginal Dreamtime stories.

But they can be spooky coz they can appear as say an Orb sitting on a fence.. plus... You get the feeling you are observed...

- "The lights can/do react to observers movements. This is a major stumbling block for most scientists." (quote)

First one I ever saw was when I was a kid about 6... I still remember it because it was just at the back of the farmhouse at night... But my spookiest one was seeing some when driving alone at about 2am in the morning in outback deserted country where I was the only vehicle on that part of the road... that really stung me and creeped me out... and boy oh boy... I couldn't get away from those lights fast enough...

Here's a link to a site which has recorded a couple of people's experienc