I don't know why, But I believe in something that is the new age equivalent of Mormonism.
I feel that there are many levels that we pass on to after this life, and at each level, we must strive to go on to the next level.
We do that, I think, through following the ten commandments, which can be applied to almost every aspect of our lives.
There is a large number of levels. Which one we end up on is like putting us at the number 0 on a number line.
What we do that is negative takes us down, and what we do that is positive brings us up.
For some reason, I believe that god has put many individuals on this Earth who will help to increase the number of people who will move on to more levels. These individuals may be aware of their mission, or may be unaware of their mission, but feel compelled to do things that all play in to one bigger picture. I feel that, as a catholic, that something is missing from the trinity. The trinity, in a sense, is based on the cross. On the cross is the son, Jesus. Above Jesus is God, the father. Surrounding Jesus is the Holy spirit, which is god's presense.
The thing missing from the trinity is the earth, and stones beneath the cross. They are nature, which acts independent of the holy spirit, and independent of god, though god can control it. God is the creator. It did not create everything, but instead was responsible for almost all life in the universe...
I don't know why, but I feel something around me, and yet do not know what it is.
It follows me, and I dont know why.
It affects things around me, and affects me, too.
For example, I went to my first confession at church, on a fairly cold day, wearing nothing but a polo shirt and khakis,
and I remember leaving enveloped by warmth.
I feel that other than our intended purposes, we all have a universal puspose which is to prove that we can live with one another, and tollerate each other. We must prove that we can do that to go on to the next level.
...
I sound all crunchy granola to most of you guys by now, or I sound schizophrenic,
but I truly believe in these things.
I am a person who lives off of observation, and experience...
I have not been raised in some spook church, new age universal thruth household.
Yet this is what I believe...
....
What do you think...
If you want to discuss it with me, PM me...

This post has been edited by c.m.2: Mar 20 2008, 08:56 PM

The Problem with your assertion is that it defies the immanent principles of movement and rest.
Within man this is the human spirit as raising and answering questions.
As raising questions, it is an immanent principle of movement.
As answering questions and doing so satisfactorily, it is an immanent principle of rest.

1) Self claims are the least credible.
2) The commandments are Dogmatic in nature.
3) The desire to hurt is just as powerfully as the desire to love and tolerate, but as humans we live with an innate contract
saying "if you don't try to kill me, then I wont try to kill you" and this desire for security coupled with the desire to love
out weighs the desire to hurt. (of course their are exceptions to this rule)
4) Your story cannot raise questions therefore cannot give answers

Each person has to find what is true for them. 10 people could watch an event, and describe it from 10 different points of view. I beleive the spiritual quest is a very personal one, it can be achieved by sitting in masses of people, or by quiet reflection on your own.
You sound like you have bits of christianity, bits of budhism and even a bit of pagen beleif happening there. It is something you have obviously given lots of thought so you have to be respected for that. Personally I lean away from classic christianity and more towards a mixture of eastern beleifs. But each to there own.

This post has been edited by Dundee: Mar 20 2008, 10:20 PM

funny, I never did like spirituality and all that other stuff,seemed too-Surreal and in essence, they are just Ideas of reflection, are they not?
We surmise, suggest a possibility, propose a project. But our surmise may lead to surprise, our suggested possibilities
give rise to doubts, our projects met with criticism. In this we finally give way to reflection. So? Are your sure? What if? What of? And what for?
"If your smart enough to not ask any questions then you can live with your thoughts", of course I'm saying that in retrospect

I suppose it depends on what your life experiences have brought you. If you have had nothing out of the ordinary happen, if you have had no experience that you may enterpret as a spiritual or paranormal experience. It would then be easy to disbeleive. But if you have had things happen....well it is not so easy to dismiss.

And who's to say I haven't had these "spiritual experiences"?
hmm... A tad bit presumptuous Dundee?
Well Every night I hear myself talk, and some nights I see myself fly, drown, become the hunted, and then the hunter.
I've accepted the fact that it's my subconscious self, a very powerful problem solver, and although my speech is clear and images vivid, sharp.
The meaning alludes me, or I cannot comprehend what it is I'm saying.
Sometimes when i know it's a very powerful night I keep and pen and paper around just so I can quickly wright down what i saw, or heard. "Words, people, and places"

What I meant when I typed, "of course I'm saying that in retrospect laugh2.gif" was that I know what your talking about but with more questions, comes more answers, then doubts, then questions once again.

This post has been edited by PortionsofFoxes: Mar 20 2008, 11:25 PM

If you see a monster rise out of a lake, you will beleive in monsters. Your last post seems to be talking about dreaming, and recording your dreams and thoughts, It is a little hard to tell exactly what you are talking about. But presumptuous?? I don't really think so. To remind you of the first part of your post... funny, I never did like spirituality and all that other stuff,seemed too-Surreal and in essence, they are just Ideas of reflection, are they not? My point was, that if your spiritual experience is profound enough, they are not ideas of reflections as you describe them. They can be very powerful experiences, leaving much less doubt in ones mind as to the nature of the experience. Agreed, some things can be pretty ambiguous, but other experiences, for some, are very very real real. Perhaps what you see as a spiritual experience and I see as a spiritual experience are not the same thing?

This post has been edited by Dundee: Mar 21 2008, 07:20 AM

Oh.. well.. first, I agree you werent being overly presumptous..based on what Foxes was writing it was a natural conclusion.

But.. I disagree with "If you see a monster rise out of a lake you will believe in monsters". SOME people will believe that. Others will think "Wow.. it sure seemed like a monster..but there are no monsters.. and I know my mind is a powerful simulator..so mostly likely it was something else".

I once, in the time just before the sun clearly rises above the mountains to light up the small valley my home town lays in, "saw" a witch. There was no doubt about it..she had all the characteristics that a witch has.. in the mythology of my home town.. and there she was.. lying in the hollow space between a boulder and the arroyo edge.. even swaying back and forth. Im sure I heard her murmering as well.

Of course as the sun rose and lit the area.. my witch was a slightly fuller than usual sage brush. The whispering was the breeze coming down the arroyo and filtering through the gaps in rocks and edge.. the swaying of the witch just the same wind rocking the brush but unable to move it out from its position.

Had I been a more impressionable boy.. and run off in panic.. would I be convinced to this day that the witches Id heard about in my youth were real? Instead of scorn, would I have felt it was moral when hearing the last witch was killed on my rez in 1936? Trusting overly in our senses..in our simulator.. and its first reaction can lead us to believe in all kinds of illusions, and Im quite sure not everyone believes automatically what they "see".

You know one thing I think people lose sight of when you say "raise ones level of conscientiousness" is what the @#$% does even mean?

Spirituality is some times thought of as some glowy thingie, and supernatural powers. Well, it is that too. But it really is quite simple. If you lose sight of how simple it is you will lose sight that it is even possible.

Really anyone can be said to be on a scale. That scale is related to the ideas that person has, how big can you think? How many things can you think with at once. But they are not just any thoughts.

If you remember a time when you learned something that could really help you, something that raised your level of ability, made it possible for you to do more, do more of what you wanted, this is what is meant by "raised conscientiousness".

Some people can do things with ease that you find hard, others are reversed and can do things only with great effort or not all all that you do. This is your level of ability.

It can be raised! But more importantly, if you just have a look at the kinds of problems you are having, you will see right way that their is something closer to home. Yes there are lots of problems in the world, and you have allot too. But the kinds that you see with your eye balls, the problems you are aware of, this is your level of awareness and conscientiousness. The ones you can not see are above your level, the ones below you that can see are simply not a problem to you.

Just inquire about others lives and difficulties. What do they consider is the worst problem they have? What is on their mind most of the time? It can be funny that some guy may say "It is that I can't get this girl to notice me". Meanwhile he could be a slob and rude and starving and poor and so on. But! he says it is with this girl! She just can't stand to be around him! But he can't see that so it is everything to him for all the wrong reasons.

Everyone has abilities, these abilities balance with the nemesis of one's life. As your abilities gain or lose you meet new nemesis walls that govern what you can achieve. There are levels far below yours and far above. It is pointless to speek of levels of conscientiousness over other people's level. As they will just stare in awe with not clue how you do it no matter how hard you try. Levels far below will seem overly simple and elicit a "I don't get why you make all this trouble for yourself"

Also, people move around in ability in the course of their life. Some people see things that are not there, others have not trouble with such things and know full well if they are imagining something as they are making it happen and can stop at any time.

It is OK to have problems. People that seem very low are able to rise. Life long mental disorders can fly apart in a second when a level shift occurs.

In all of this shifting, some factors will not change. Rise above these limitations and they will drag you down. Go below them and they will not stop you from rising. It is not that they can not change, it is that they are really bugging you and introduce new problems you just can't ever seem to get past.

Many a Buddhist monk sat and pondered self limitations and so on. Only to one day open his eyes and realize he no longer needed his troubles. That they were just no longer a problem him.

In the western world, where the only thing that is real is what we can all see, personal improvement is all physical. There has been a special branding to the universe each person has. Things outside your head are the only things that can change what is inside. That a person can have a substantial thought that makes a difference is not even coherent to some people. Such an act would be pointless and you should never take a personal account to mean something important. The right drug, a stern beating, punishment, these make a lasting difference. This is the western belief.

It is a very grounded belief, and is one of the lowest orders of awareness a life form can have about himself. Such a level opens the door to lower levels. It is this fact alone that needed to be broken for man to stop acting like an animal. Few things compare to asking someone to have morals and personal pride and having that person look you in the eye and ask why would anyone would want that? Such a person doesn't even think he is real enough to pay any attention to. He thinks cars, money and other things will give him self respect. A feeling of worth. He otherwise thinks he is nothing. And at that point, he is just about nothing.

These tapes and talks that tell you "you are something", "you are important", can only sell in a civilization that is sick from this. Such is an artificial act can only mean something to someone that really feels he is nothing.

And last, when a civilization has these people that feel they are nothing, there will be no room for religion or spirituality. As people are nothings, there is no need for subjects that address nothing. Life can not be measured in weight or energy, but some people can't see anything but this. Thus it is a level of awareness to be able to see and grant that life is something. No happiness can come to man, crime and a lack of morals can never be cured without dedicating some time to acknowledge that life is something and that it is impotant. That people can and should be encouraged to have and use free will. The restoration of the ability to choose to defy physical laws are requirements to making moral decisions. It may sound stupid, like it is unneeded, but your ability to make a decision is something only life has, if you say life means nothing, you will right away see the loss of the ability to choose a right and moral decision in that life form. Even if you do this by mistake you will still see it. While encouraging them will build up that life forms ability to make decisions that defy any problem they encounter and sometimes moral choices can be the hardest of all. All of this is dependent on granting that the life form itself -independent of the physical form- is important. There is no way to get around this, and doing it will raise contentiousness and more able people. It works like magic if done correctly. However the fine art of abusing it is installed in allot of what you learn such as the question "Are you sure?", seems quite innocent.... If you can get what I am saying here, then you can understand why a religion, dedicating all this time to people, would be so powerful that it could make animialistic barbarians into scholars and thinkers and is why early religions had all the scholars. When religions are hurt, so to do people lower their morals standards. Not to say that all religions are doing their jobs the way they should be.... But even people that choose to believe false things they are told are at least using that much free will...

This post has been edited by ScottMan: Mar 21 2008, 02:35 PM

I guess this is a matter of perspective, a skeptic will probably say that? But what if it was a monster?

Now, I will not make the same mistake twice and assume I know what you are thinking, so i will ask Do you beleive that we don't have spiritual experiences, that what we think is one, will always be just our enterpretation of a natural (non spiritual) happening. Or are you just playing the devils advocate?

No matter how anyone puts this matter of spirituality and the nature of spirituality it still remains subjective.

My assertion on spirituality is that being a human comes with many complexities, one is the complexity of the brain
and the duality of the mind, Conscious and subconscious.
A spiritual experience maybe the subconscious mind connecting the conscious mind, something more like a dream but relevant to our daily lives.
But a common argument I encounter is the "vision" and you can even try this for yourself if you don't believe me

one cannot image what one has never seen, therefor it is impossible to imagine something completely unique in nature.
And by that I mean that all acts of imagination are just amalgamations of previous experiences.

so try to imagine something "new" paint it if you like. It's nothing I've never seen before.

Pegasus is just the Wings of a bird and the body of a horse
But the one will never actually see Pegasus.

This post has been edited by PortionsofFoxes: Mar 22 2008, 02:09 AM

Again excuse my ignorance but I am still not quite clear on what you are saying, you say A spiritual experience maybe the subconscious mind connecting the conscious mind, while I agree that in some cases, perhaps most cases this is true, i dont beleive this is true for all experiences, so my question now is, is it your assertion that there is nothing spiritual to experience, and that any paranormal or personal experience is simply our imagination.

We'll it depends on your definition of what is spiritual.
But I do believe that their were things to experience that were nothing short of miraculous.
Just that that time has ended, and now it is very real possibility that many of these experience are nothing beyond scientific explanation.
their's definitely that Grey area.

I would be willing to bet that hypothetically, if there were ghosts, and we had the opportunity to study them, eventually, science would be able to bothe explain and detect them. But there are many things that happen that defy common sense though.
My son for example, I have posted elswhere a couple of times, but he is now 15, but since he was 6 he has spoken in 3 languages while he sleeps, other than english, yet knows only english while awake, hell we have even heard him sing in other languages. I once had a dream, i told my parents about it (I was only about 14) as it was quite unusual. I remembered the dream clearly and without any confusion. About 3 weeks later my dream became reality in exact detail, i watched as if dejavu but the difference being I could remember the dream happening. Yet I anticipated avery moment of what was happening for around 30 seconds. the list could go on, and I bet many people here have similar stories.