An incident occured recently, the following was witnessed and heard:

A Muslim woman dressed in a Burkha, a Black Gown and Face Mask, was standing with her shopping in a queue at the Supermarket Check-out. When it was her turn to be served, as she reached the Cashier, she made a loud remark about the English Flag Lapel Pin which the Cashier was wearing on her blouse. The Cashier reached up and touching the Pin said:
"Yes, I always wear it proudly". " My Son serves abroad with the Forces and I wear it for him".
The Muslim woman then asked the Cashier when she was going to stop bombing and killing her Countrymen, explaining that she was Iraqi.
At this point a Gentleman standing in the queue stepped forward and interupted with a calm and gentle voice. He said to the Iraqi woman;
"Excuse me but hundreds of thousands of men and Women just like this Ladies Son have fought and sacrificed their lives so that people just like YOU can stand here in ENGLAND, which is MY COUNTRY, and allow YOU to blatantly accuse an innocent Check-Out Cashier of bombing and killing YOUR Countrymen". "It is my belief that if YOU were allowed to be as outspoken as that in Iraq, which YOU claim is, YOUR Country, then we wouldn't need to be fighting there today". "However- Now that YOU have learned how to speak out and criticize the ENGLISH PEOPLE who have afforded YOU the protection of MY COUNTRY, I will gladly pay the cost of a ticket to help you pay your way back to Iraq". "When YOU get back there, and if YOU manage to survive for being so outspoken as what YOU are here in ENGLAND, then YOU should be able to help straighten out the mess which YOUR IRAQI Countrymen have got us into in the first place, which appears to be the reason that YOU have to come to MY COUNTRY to avoid".
The Gentleman then returned to his place in the queue.
He was met by cheering and applause from all who had witnessed and heard his interuption.

Hell yea!!!!!

That's brilliant. I love it.

I would of applauded him as well.

Of course his whole idea seems undercut by his own statement. "We are free here, you werent in Iraq. And if you dont agree with us here..then go back to Iraq!". SO..youre free..just not free to..disagree?

Tell it Like it Is? Iraq was invaded because its people werent free to speak their opinion?

Whatever. Great speech to get a crowd riled up. Its not "Telling it like it is". Life isnt a Rambo movie and it takes more than nice sounding sound bites to capture the reality of the situation.

If the anecdote is true, which I doubt, couldnt it be possibly that the woman was speaking to her disappointment with her adopted country? That she chose to move to Britain considering it a fine example of what she believed nations should be like, only to find upon arrival that Britain was willing to engage in pre emptive wars? Maybe she was speaking from the frustration of the civil war, religious violence, etc that has engulfed her country leading to over a million refugees.

Over simplified cheerleading does nothing to settle the situation..and telling someone from Iraq that your sons are fighting FOR them is going to resound spectacularly hollow to someone who lives in Iraq. Like in Vietnam, the people who LIVE in the country have a very different perspective of what the war means for them. This is not a 1944 liberation of France.

Maybe if you lived in England Vet for any lengh of time you would understand where this man is coming from, i for one totally agree with what he is getting at, and if you lived here you would to....

British forces have not bombed or otherwise killed any significant number of Iraqis since the occupation began. The vast majority of such deaths are at the hands of other Iraqis and foreign Muslim militants. If they first give up the violence, then the conflict would be over. If the coalition troops first give up the violence, there would be a total blood bath.

It does get somewhat annoying that people from oppressed countries, come to countries like ours that enjoy relatively free speech, then bag the crap out of the country they have adopted. You would have to imagine if they have taken the time to migrate here then we offer advantages that are not available in their own countries. If it is so bad here, and we are such a bunch of bastards, why don't they go home if it is better. But no, they will stay here and enjoy our way of life and freedom and rubbish us all the way. I have come across this many many times in the time spent tutoring. Only then you have to be politically correct and not react...for fear of being racist!!

When I was a student (mature age) we had an Indian teacher, on this day we had problems with his lab class, his Novell lab just didn't work, he began blaming the Uni Novell tech and carrying on, which was a joke because it was his lab that was stuffed, not the network. Anyway he was letting fly at this bloke to the class who was not in on the day to defend himself. the whole thing was misdirected and wrong and very unprofessional. Anyway he got to his punchline which was, "and where is he today? when the going gets tough he is nowhere to be seen, typical bloody Australian". Well lets just say he caught me on a bad day and I had had enough of his nonsense so I let fly. I told him... well i suggested in not so polite terms that his decision to live in this country may have been an error in judgment and perhaps he might reconsider and purchase a ticket back to India. Or words to that effect with a few colorfull descriptive words
Well the kids in the class (uni) were fresh out of high school and i think my enthusiasm somewhat scared them because all went quiet and I don't think anyone quite knew what to do. This Indian twit realized he had crossed some very serious professional boundaries and started caking his dacks. He spent the rest of the class sucking up to me and never bagged our tech out again.

The point being, why come here if we are such a bunch of bastards and there country is so much better? I don't get it.

This post has been edited by Dundee: May 15 2008, 05:39 AM

It's funny because I see foreigners come to Japan and bash the place. It's hilarious because, back home, these are the same people who say "This is America! Why do people have to wave Mexican flags and speak Spanish blah-blah-blah" and then they come to Japan, fly the American flag, speak English all the time, and bash Japan. Not that I should talk: been here 10 years and I could definitely study the language more.

the grass always looks greener from the other side.until you get there and find out its exactly the same.you will always get whiners and moaners its a personality trait in some.

Andrew, the British supplied 45,000 troops for an invasion of Iraq, knowingly toppling its government and knowing that there was no plan in place for what to do once the government was toppled. They might be the side kick but clearly Britain in culpable in what has happened to Iraq. Then, despite their responsibility for having created the instability in the country they were not even willing to meet their obligations in their area, Basra, and pulled out, effectively ceding the territory to militia.

And this woman is supposed to be happy about it? And for expressing her BRITISH RIGHTS she is told to go back home?

So.. basically.. one is free to express ones feelings in Britain..unless one critisizes Britain?

Sounds a lot like George Bush philosophy to me.

Kirin..I know EXACTLY what youre talking about. Its annoying to hear foreigners in Japan complain about every damn thing thats not done the way they are at home.

The question is complex, because British soldiers are not bombing and killing her countrymen. You have said it yourself: Britain has shirked its responsibility in Iraq and minimized its presence and involvement. Therefore, it is not within Britain's power for the bombing and killing to stop, although they played a role in creating the situation. Don't read too much into what I am saying, there is nothing between the lines, I meant only what I said. I am not a patriot.

British soldiers are not bombing nor killing..but Britain, when it matter most, decided to stand up and be counted among the tiny minority of nations that said a pre emptive war on Iraq was alright...despite its intelligence service giving 10 Downing Street warning after warning. At least Bush seems to have actually believed the lies he was being told.. Blair seems to have .. just gone along for the ride despite knowing everything was wrong. So though the lady in the supermarket may have her details wrong.. Britain does not escape culpability for the state of Iraq today. If Blair had stood up to Bush they would. But your elected leader did not. And as weve noted, having once torn down the government of Iraq, Britain has now basically said "well..f*ck it.. sorry.." and left them, and now Basra is run by a Muslim militia instead of being rebuilt by the countries that put it in the quagmire. If British people cant understand why Iraqis and people who care for Iraqis might have some issue with this, then quite frankly, they need to educate themselves.

The story is obviously apocryphal and I was just making a comment on the nature of the violence in Iraq at the moment. A better question for the lady to have asked in the story would have been "why did Britain effectively abandon Iraq after having invaded?" Iraqis have reason to be angry with Britain, but if it is because they are under the impression that British forces have an ongoing program of bombing and killing Iraqis then they are mistaken.

Invading Iraq was not my decision, but an abandonment of Iraq has always been the most strongly argued position of the anti-war movement ever since the toppling of Saddam (the effect of coalition forces is supposedly to make the overall situation worse), which to me seems irresponsible. The British decision to cut down troop numbers and hand over the security of Basra to Iraq was a capitulation to this and to Muslims in Britain, who are angered mostly by the heathen presence in Dar al-Islam and could not give a damn about the violence there on account of Muslim infighting.

Why is it that no mind is ever paid to the role that Iraq itself played in its current state of affairs? Does it share no culpability in its own demise? So its government can effectively sponsor and condone...terrorism, killing civilians, oppressing women, violating human and civil rights, etc...but when other countries step in to stop this and usurp its tyrannical, oppressive government...those countries are to blame for taking a strong stand against the tyrants?

HHHmmmmm i wonder what would happen if a British person were to critzise muslims openly in an islamic country Vet..? i think we all know what the outcome of doing that would be even if you try to sugar coat an answer....

So yes the fact that she can openly critisise this country and not face being beaten to death or kidnapped and killed is testament to the freedom that she has in this country and in the rest of the west.....

I won't bother replying anymore my views on this subject are quite clear....

Good point Fen, lets not forget these little gems either...

Remember some were calling for this poor woman to be executed!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/29/schools.religion


And boy that education system is evil too!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...5013404,00.html

I personally think it is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. Some of the most oppressed people on earth making comments like this. And as far as westerners condoning it by nonsense about free speech and comparisons to the "Iraq Invasion", now that is simplifying a complex issue.

I wonder what would happen to me if i stood in Pyongyang Square and rubbished the government and its people.
If stood in Saddam's Iraq and criticized him.
And heaven forbid I have free speech in an Islamic country and dared to criticize Islam.

But hey, thats right, it is much better over there, thats why so many migrate to the west.

This post has been edited by Dundee: May 15 2008, 03:11 PM

If you come to this country from some where else because you dont like what is happening in your country, dont belittle the people in this country for trying to help. If you dislike what is happening, then go back to where you came from and do something to help , dont come to another country and bitch about it.

Precisely, Andrew, Precisely so. Somebody's just trying to make a point. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody saw an immigrant in a public place say something about their country that hurt their feelings. However, I got a feeling it didn't go down quite like this.

Andrew I totally agree with you there.. but thats not how the story is being told.

Fen Star...I dont see your point. If she critisized an Islamic government when living in an Islamic country she would face punishment possibly. And? So? Therefore, she she just be quiet, shut up and not care that over a million Iraqis have been made refugees, that untold thousands are dead, that it has fallen into something just short of civil war.. and Britain bears some responsibility for this state of affairs? Is that REALLY what you mean? Or do you mean that as long as other nations do bad things, Britain should feel free to do so as well? Or just what are you getting at? Egypt, for example, treats its citizens shabbily so a woman of Iraqi descent in Britain should just..shut up?

Tutu..Iraq was not sponsoring terrorism except for the 25,000 dollars it gave to Palestinian suicide bombers. And certainly that was not the reason we invaded. Womens rights.. well, compared to other nations in the world they had equal rights. Iraq was a secular state where religion had minimal influence (until the last 2 years of Saddams rule when he started to invoke it to get more support from his neighbors). Civil rights. Abysmal. Of course. But thats not why we were told we were invading, and if it were, why are we not invading every other Middle Eastern nation aside from Israel, UAE, and possibly Jordan? The world is full of tyrants.

And I offer up this.. if the US and Britain had gone in, toppled Saddam, and had had a feasible PLAN for afterwards the blame would be considerable less. But Iraq before the war, although the population was oppressed, was a relatively safe country. There was little sectarian violence, there was no mass exodous of refugees, etc.

People blame the US and Britain because it has long been an international standard that pre emptive wars are wrong. People blame the US and Britain because most countries feel war is wrong except in "clear and present danger".. not future hypotheticals. And today, people blame the US and Britain because they got into a war with the mind to take down a tyrant, with little mind as to what they would do to keep that society coherent once the tyrant was gone. Theyve been liberated from Saddam, but it is NOW that women have to go around in veils and accompanied by a male relative. It is now that their sons are recruited into militias under penalty of death.

Iraq in 2003 was not a nice place by any means. But most people dont feel it warranted invasion and all that entails.