I just watched a film on National Geographic Channel about the Grand Teton Mountains.

The yellow leg frog once numbered in the millions. Ninty five percent of them are gone. There is no mystery as to why. Insecticides from the surrounding environment are proven to be the cause.

Insecticides in farm and lawn products. Herbacides in these products. I keep being asked where is the proof? National Geographic presented biologist stating this is the cause.

Monsanto corporation manufactures these poisons and we use them indescriminently.

The list of species being lost is almost to long to present. And nobody seems to get it.

What is wrong with us. We are destroying the environment with poisons. We are in the middle of one of the greatest extinctions in history. It is one we created and we continue to ignore the cause and use these products.

It is so far reaching in scope that the most remote areas in the world are being devistated. These poisons are in the worlds water system. They are in our food and we drink them in our water.

The legacy we leave to the future is one of shame. It is insanity.

I am ashamed to be a member of the human race. Perhaps Aliens will invade and rescue the planet before we totally destroy it. Perhaps the world will recover when we are extinct and our poisons are no longer being spread throughout the environment. We are poor custodians of this world and do not deserve it.

The human race is destructive to the level of mass lunacy. We are a race gone mad. You can sit in your beautiful green lawns and describe what butterflies and bees and frogs looked like to your grandchildren. Try to convince them that their lawns are worth the loss.

Bart, animals have been disappearing from the earth at a CONSTANT rate for thousands of years. The list of animals that disappeared before now is incredibly long. Yes, we are looking at the deaths of hundreds of SPECIES in the next 300 years, including most of the megafauna on earth, but I have to say: it's merely a cascade effect that started at the end of the last ice age.

Where are the mammoths and mastadons? The cave bears? The giant sloth? The sabre-toothed cat? The North American camel? The North American horse? Where's the gigantic Irish deer? In Australia there were once 9 foot meat-eating kangaroos, marsupial lions, and tortoises the size of volkswagons: all gone. I mean, I could go ON and ON, but this isn't a recent phenomenon.

I doubt it being a constant rate,unless of course you have been about for a few thousand years to keep count of this constant rate.

Extinctions happen,its part of life on earth.But creatures face a greater challenge now.MAN.
Animals are now facing extinction,not due to natural events but due to destruction of habitat,land being used for housing,agriculture,industry and deforestation are all putting these endangered speices at risk.

You cannot ignore man's impact on all other life on this planet,soon nobody will.We have to have the diversity of llife,we cannot survive without it.Everything on this planet needs somthing else to survive,we all need each other Man,Bug and Beast.

But Mac, MAN has ALWAYS had an impact on extinctions. Just ask the wooly mammoths and cave bears, hunted to extinction. Just ask the dodo. By constant rate, what I mean is not the same number each year. You're being too literal. What I mean is that the last 100 years are not so different than previous centuries. Every century has seen the extinction of species, and to be completely honest, the last 100 years are NOT significantly different.

Man has always had and will always have an impact on species death, and yes, in the next 300 years, most megafauna on the planet: bears, whales, elephants, rhinos, manatees ... all gone; lions, tigers, all the big cats ... gone; this may surprise you but horses and cows, three hundred years from now ... gone. Some say even pure breed dogs and cats will be gone and we'll be left with the stronger mutts.

However, think about it: mammoth, mastodon, wooly rhino, Irish deer, giant sloth, dire wolf, saber toothed cat, giant beaver, North American horses and tapirs, North American camels, and so many more.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Ple...ene_extinctions

You notice how Subsaharan Africa is merely catching up with the rest of the world in terms of extinction? This is a 10,000 year event that has very little to do with industry or pesticide.

This post has been edited by kirin-rex: Sep 5 2008, 03:35 AM

I agree with some of what you said.But Man's development is having a major impact,the world is a different place then it was ten thousand years ago.Our most major developments have been in the last 100 years.A hundred and fifity years ago we weren't burning petrol chemicals and fossil feuls in every major city.The population was less,we live in areas that was once wild habitat,thus destroying and native spieces,such is has happening as we speak in Madagasca and Brazil.i feel we are an Unatural presence in a natural world that will always harbour life but i don't think we'll get along for long enough to see its conclusion.

this adds to some points i missed http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XbOXUza9ZeE

No, mac, believe it or not, ten thousand years ago we were burning trees. Native Americans burned whole western forests to open up into plains for large game. People all over the world were chopping down trees and burning them EVERY DAY for cooking and heating.

10,000 years ago, the human population was about 5,000,000 ... according to wiki. It's more than a thousand times that now.

And see, I'm NOT denying that man has had an impact: I'm only saying that the impact is not recent. Man has ALWAYS engaged in habitat destruction ... burning down forests, building mounds, filling in swamps, quarrying stone and more.

150 years ago we WERE burning fossil fuels for heat: we used coal stoves! we all did!

150 years ago
No clean energy. Our lights were kerosene. Our heat was wood and coal. We didn't worry about pollution. City skies were black with smog from open fires. The city rivers were filthy with garbage and sewage. Read Gangs of New York (the history book).

I'm not saying pollution isn't a problem today. It is a problem. I'm not saying human beings aren't contributing to the death of species. We are. I'm not saying that we shouldn't change are ways or that we shouldn't try to preserve species. We should. I'm saying this is not a recent phenomenon and things are in some ways better than they were before.

Read Michael Crichton's State of Fear. Very informative. Not sure if I buy some of the things people say, even though it's been thoroughly research, sourced and cited. But it's a good read.

MacD posts: i feel we are an Unatural presence in a natural world that will always harbour life but i don't think we'll get along for long enough to see its conclusion.
==================
Hey Mac… Humans are a natural part of Earth’s biosphere… For the moment…lol

There is a phenom scientists are aware of regarding mass extinctions on Earth, Like the classical "Big Five" mass extinctions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_extinctions

So, even if Humanity lived in ‘harmony’ with nature (which is a paradox imho) the majority of the creatures on Earth will still be destroyed due to this phenom I speak of.

The thing I like about modern Humanity is this; When we see we are destroying our means of survival (over fishing etc) we tend to take steps to rectify the problem.

We aren’t stupid, just sometimes a little ‘short-sighted’…lol ~rore

90 percent of all species that ever lived on this planet are extinct. Expected and understood. The sun is warming as a natural couse of its evolution.

However these events are slow changes and as the environment changes animals go extinct and new ones evolve to fill the void. This is natural.

It is unnatural events like comet strikes that cause sudden catastrophic extinctions.

It is the over harvesting, ursupping of habitat, and poisening the environment that is adding up to a mass extinction of an unnatural event.

It is life that creates an environment condusive to life. It takes the world a long time to recover from sudden mass extinction. Many examples like crustacians and reefs converting carbon dioxide to seashells and corals.

Ignore this at our peril.

The results of our impact on the earth have exceeded my comfort level by a long shot. I guess it depends on what kind of world you want to live in.

The world can absorb and process the poisons of four billion responsible humans. We are six billion irresponsable fools and counting. Learn to control ourselves and our desires or face the consequences of environental collapse.

Slow environmental change is natural. Sudden change is catastrophic with dire consequences.

Bart posts: The world can absorb and process the poisons of four billion responsible humans. We are six billion irresponsable fools and counting. Learn to control ourselves and our desires or face the consequences of environental collapse.
===============

I hear you Bart, but I think you are missing some important factors… Those 4 billion you speak of, you are thinking that nature can process their poisons, ‘naturally’.
Well, imo, Humanity will have to help nature along because Humanity is way beyond ‘nature’s ability’ to process these poisons so, it’ll be up to Humanity to figure out a way to do it.

We are way beyond your 4 billion mark and we will continue to grow and triple that amount by the end of the 21st century imho.

Can we sustain a good quality of Life? IMHO…Yes!

We will need to keep doing what we have been doing for the last 50 or so years… That is, identify problems that will negatively affect our survival and ‘fix‘ them. (Actually, longer than that. Every time Humanity builds around a source of food, they seem to deplete it and have to discover other means of survival)

If that means we lose 20% or more of our biodiversity, so be it.
So long as it is not those life-forms essential to Humanity’s survival.
I‘m for Humanity‘s survival over that of a common mollusk, sorry.
Hopefully, Humanity will not destroy non-essential creatures by turning a blind eye toward them in favor of ‘monetary profits‘.
About the ‘slow environmental changes’ you speak of Bart…
If the history of our Planet tells us anything, it is this: With or without Humanity’s meddling, the Earth goes through mass extinctions anyways.
Humanity DID NOT CAUSE the last calamity and may not be able to prevent the next Natural Extinction that appears to be the norm for creatures on Earth.

What I am trying to say is; Nature doesn’t care about Humanity.
It’ll be up to Humanity to shape nature in order for nature to support Humanity.
That’s the price we pay for striving to be ’god-like’…lol ~rore

This post has been edited by rorechof: Sep 5 2008, 11:37 AM

chemtrails.

Vyrtigo: what ARE chemtrails? Provide a source with proof that they even exist.

1) Adaptability is very important. An atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, unleashing catastrophe that rendered the entire area toxic ... in three days, the trains were running again.

2) We possess the ability to clean up toxic waste today on a scale unparalleled in human history. At this very moment, scientists are working to bioengineer exophile bacteria that will eat radioactive and other toxic waste. Already, bio-cleanups have been used on polluted lakes and rivers, and on oil spills such as the Exxon Valdez.

3) Without our evil industrialized technology, this planet would not be capable of supporting the number of people who live here. Our evil technology is not only helping us clean our environment, it provides medical care against catastrophic injury, disease and plague, it makes our agriculture more efficient, allowing us to provide food for more people, and our technology allows us to distribute that food to more people, leading to greater food efficiency ... although we still have a long way to go. Our evil technology is allowing us to turn garbage into clean energy.

What more do you want?

You're worried about deforestation? Would it surprise you to know that our ancient rainforests in Central America are only a few hundred years old? Ancient agricultural civilizations almost completely clearcut Central America ... then a catastrophe of some kind destroyed their civilization and the trees grew back.

Years ago, I worried about this too ... then I started reading things BESIDES the newspapers. Read State of Fear and look at his sources. Again, I don't buy it completely, but it's an eye opener.

K-rex.....I've been working in the environmental field for almost 25 years....the overall impact is decreasing as the worst sites have been remediated......unless we want to go back to being hunter/gatherer society there will always be pollution.....but current controls and regulations are far more stringent and the methods/practices that caused Love Canal and Valley of the Drums are likely things of the past.

I agree that we have made strides in manufacturing toxicities. We have recognized the importance in wetlands and taken steps to protect them.

What troubles me is the deliberate acts that we have come to accept as the norm. Biologists have linked the loss of amphibians directly to the use of insecticides. Particuarly arial spraying. 95 percent in the Sierra Nevada mountains, an area we consider pristine. Yosemite is a major site of loss. Amphibians absorb moisture and their skin has to remaion moist. Biologists consider them a direct indicator of water quality.

Even in habitat that is set aside and left pristine the water quality is bad. Consider that we are drinking and eating this stuff as it filters through the food chain.

Further it is an established fact that crab and oyster loss in the Cheasepeke bay has been directly linked to lawn care products. Golf courses are a major offender. Again a direct indicator of water quality with direct links to our foods. Beautiful green lawns are not necessary for human survival. It is gratuitous destruction for vanity.

And it is our attitude of acceptence of these values that is the most disturbing.

Recognizing the problem and doing what can be done within reason is one thing. Playing a roud of golf and accepting this as worth the destruction of the environment is quite another. Do greens have to be perfect to play the game?

Recogize that we must find balance with nature or accept its destruction. It is the choice we make. Choosing to make no decisione, and playing a round of golf while we barbique on perfect lawns is making a choice. A bad one.

I remember a yard with clover, dandylions, crabgrass, and bee stings when I was a child. I want imperfect lawns and natures little pains back. Perfect lawns offend me.

bart......you just described my lawn including the recent bee stings......and the yellow jackets and white faced hornets all went away without pesticides.....I let the honeybees live.....the rest of the misc weeds are still there..... ......so bart what country are you from?

Quick note: The amphibian depopulation is related to a fungus that clogs their pores, preventing them from getting enough moisture. Thus they die of dehydration.

February 20, 2007, 12:16 pm
A Fungus Brings Dinosaurs’ Fate to Frogs
By Tom Zeller Jr.

However, read the news and scientists will tell you that frogs are dying of whatever they're raising money to prevent.

You site whats going on in your yard and ignore the dynamics of the world at large.

What planet are you from?

Nobody seems to get it. If you insist on being that obtuse then this problem will continue to grow. It is the actions of individuals that will have to determine the future. Corporations like Monsanto only care about profit and the gov is not responsive to environmental issues.

Fungus attacking amphibians. Parasites for the bees.

Disease and parasites have been around for as long as the species they attack. It is not just this and nothing else. These problems are out of control because the environment at large is sick. Immune systems are compromised, Defenses unresponsive.

Why should all the amphibians on the planet suddenly die of a fungus infection that has been killing seven to ten percent of them for millennia?
Why are the death rates jumping from 10 to 95 percent for fungus infections? It is because the water quality is sick. Poisons have broken down the skin resistance of the amphibians to fungal infections. The first symptom of amphibian troubles were birth defects not fungal infections. Birth defects caused by toxins. Thalidamyde babies in nature.

Take the simplistic view because it preserves your sense of values that what we do is not the cause. Nature is a balance of preditor, pray, disease, parasite and pests. It always has been.

If this kind of death rate were occuring in humans the alarms would be going off and the crises would be extreme.

It is like saying the bubonic plague is what killed all the people in the dark ages and ignoring the flees that spread it. Focus on the flees and ignore the rats carrying them. Ignore the animal deaths from loss of plants and the lack of garbage control and fail to recognize why the rat population exploded. Ignore the explosion of Krakitoa that precipitated a climate change over the earth as the foundation for this series of events.

Do you think there is no connection between the dark ages in Europe and the collapse of the Myan civilization? It was a time of global stress due to plant loss from the volcanic explosion. Rats proliferated because they feed on dead animals. Lack of garbage control in Europe compounded the problem.

It is the entire ecosystem that is out of balance and sick and we are the direct cause. We focus on the symptoms and pat ourselves on the back that it's not our fault. It is a plot by fungus.

These attitudes are what brought us here and they insure that the course will continue in bussiness as usual.

As a race we remain thick as a brick.

bart....I was not ignoring the larger problem because I know the steps being taken to correct problems.....I know the problems exist....

as for the Planet I'm from the northeastern portion of the north american continent on Planet earth.... ......which one are you from.

you do make a good point that there are a number of effects that a global catastrophy like Krakatoa and in recent years mount pinotubo.....climate changes are another to cause global stress like the little ice age and the black death

Remember mount tombura erupted in 1815.....and there was no summer in 1816 as there was 2 feet of snow in june and july......which obviously caused ecosystem stress......and stress therefore to the inhabitants of the region.

one last thing.......and this is just common manners.......if you mention your back yard....don't insult or get all excited if someone mentions theirs.

Did not mean it as a personal attack. But if a little poke at someone inspires some thought on the subject good.

Two hundred and fifty years ago you could hunt deer in your front yard. As population density increases personal liberties must be sacrificed. Cannot discharge a firearm in city limits.

It is the same with the environment. The more population impacting the environment the more actions are required to compensate.

Monsanto cares about nothing but profit. The government is concerned with jobs, foreclosures, militaey operations, and getting elected.

If we do not start taking responsibility for the environment on a personal level then all is lost. Lawn care products and trash cannot impact the environment if we refuse to use them. Monsanto makes the big sell and peer pressure is for perfect lawns. It becomes a personal decision to buy into the sales promotions. People need to become more aware of how their individual actions impact the entire world, not just their lawns.

There is beauty in the natural world. Natural lawns are far more appealing than chemically artificial ones. Our value system is in need of an overhaul. We need to re evaluate what we find of value.

The value of clean and healthy bays verses golf corses and lush green lawns. It is the value systems of the individual that will determine which we have. Right now our bays are losing and we cannot have both with our current technology.

The time is quickly running out where we will have a choice. Bad choices and regret are to late after the butterflies are extinct. Let a toy balloon lose and kill a bird needs to be an individual awarness. Birds, turtles, and fish die by the thousands mistaking bright bits of plastic for shiney litlle fish and insects that they eat. Our oceans are full of trash and poisons that six billion people release every day.

One lawn and one toy balloon means nothing. It is the cumulative effect of billions of them. Change will only come when every individual cares enough to change their behavior.

I am feeling very pessimistic about the earths environment when I look around me at the people in my community and realize most are barly aware of anything outside their immediate needs and desires.

I fear that all is lost.