Great vid about how teaching creationism to children is completely irresponsible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYphna9UTCk...feature=related

Well, I don't mind them teaching that God created the universe in 6 days ... so long as they teach EVERY creation theory, including African, Native American, Hindu, Norse, Greek, Pastafarian and whatever. Should take a while.

I think that if you want to call teaching creationism "irresponsible", then you should also include evolution in there too.

While I believe our understanding of evolution is flawed, and while our analysis of the direction evolution has taken has been wrong, I believe evolution as a concept is correct ... unless you'd like to posit spontaneous generation.

That said: I have no problem with the idea that a creator created the universe ... I'm just not sure it should be taught in school. Isn't that what church is for? Church for creation, school for science. Is that so hard?

Thats fair enough Kirin-rex-maybe they should have a separate class called 'non scientific origin concepts' where kids can learn all about the beleifs of Viking relgion,Polynesian relgion,Eskimo relgion,Aztec relgion (plus about 3000 more non provable beleif systems).

When it becomes dangerous and utterly irresponsible is when relgious fanatacism infiltrates the science classroom and adults misrepresent 'faith' as 'fact'.

I've been told that Liberty 'University' in California actualy teaches students (as factual knowledge) that the earth is 5000 years old ,if thats not a complete betrayal of student/teacher principles then I don't know what is.

The words delusional,innaccurate,erroneous,misleading and fallacious spring to mind-why can't these relgious extremists just keep their 'opinions' to the confines of their own church/temple/mosque/synagogue etc... ?

Cheers Karl

I don't think there should be any religion of any sort at all taught in school. There is plenty of evidence to support evolution. Verifiable evidence. It is appropriate to teach evolution in science classes. But creation....well that doesn't belong there at all. Particularly as there is no need for fact in religion, only faith. As you said, the world is only 5000 years old, even though I have sitting in front of me now a 350 million year old fossil. Oh thats right they are god years, they are longer

This post has been edited by Dundee: Jun 11 2008, 04:32 AM

Yes I agree,how can you mark an exam on God when no-one knows any of the answers ?

Evolution does exist. I will admit it is more based on truth then creationism. But Evolution is a secondary factor. It is so low on the importance chain that it should be dropped in all but biology, and even in biology it should not be taken as more then a biological factor of no more important then things like skeletal structure and cell metabolism.

It is simply played up too much is all. Not that I think it should not be in school, or that people should not learn it, but it is low on importance. I perhaps play it down too much, but that is because it is played up so much.



Both belong there. School exists so that people can have the knowledge to create their own destiny. Without science the physical universe is untameable and deadly. Without religion man will cease to function as an intelligent life form. If this concept of religion conflicts with what you know, or can think with, then you are the subject of no or a perverted education on the subject. It is not about God, it never was, it is about you.

Science is apart of everything you do. I think you know that so much so that I doubt I need to tell you much to prove it. Religion is the same. It is in every thought, every movement, every hope, every dream, every concept you have. While some talk of God or Gods, or even somehow becoming a god. I speak of knowing yourself clearly.

While Science can make great cars and keep them running, religion can make great people and ensure they stay that way. How fast can you think? Religion should be able to answer that question, grease the gears and dust off the cobwebs so that you can push it to new and greater levels. Religion is not about a soul that you may or may not have a pink slip for.

If you can think with Science as understanding the world we live in and what can be done with it. And Religion as understanding yourself and what you are capable of. Then you will have the subjects straight. It takes both to have a good chance of living successfully if at all. So both should be in schools so that everyone can have that chance.

Only a person with a wide enough view of life can see the missing peaces that neither religion nor science clearly identify but often get into. While you may or may not have confidence in me to know what I am talking about, I am telling you, religion is the correct name for the subject of you. And you are the soul, however most people makeup a lame story for what it is and then say "See? I can't find it". Or think that "you" -the soul- is made of energy is an error (like seeing a ghost and thinking you saw the person -the soul) because it is not.

This post has been edited by ScottMan: Jun 11 2008, 06:38 AM

[quote name='karl 12' date='Jun 10 2008, 09:45 PM' post='359296']
Great vid about how teaching creationism to children is completely irresponsible:



sees the extreme similarity that there is between the alien ones and we, according to my opinion ,the alien ones have created the man with the genetic engineering, adapting their Dna so that he could fully be compatible with the terrestrial ecosystem.
But since small we come as programmed by the society.
We have to think all equally, we have to make all the same things.
I always think , that our brain has been programmed since small.
At times we realize there that this is not the reality that surrounds us, and that since small
they have made us believe things that are not true..............................

You've done it again, ScottMan. Another damn good post that makes complete sense. Keep it up.

I am sorry scottman but i have to say this. It is exactly this kind of extreme one sided bollux that makes me so glad you don't run the education system.
I am absolutely happy for you to have your own personal beliefs, so long as you don't force it on others in our schools.
Exactly what religion are you wanting in schools...yours.. or those that agree with your beliefs. Why not Islam, but then which Islam the moderate peaceful Islam, or the extreme Islam that wants to make suicide bombers out of us all. What about some of the other religions, there are some pretty darn extreme beliefs out there that while I guess are acceptable on a personal level, most certainly should not be forced down our kids necks in school. Who would you have decide what to include, and exclude? You, me, or some Islamic extremist. I would not be happy with your choices, you would not be happy with mine, and I would hope we both would not be happy with Islamic extremists. By not teaching religion, you are not forcing any one view on anyone, if a child decides to look into any particular faith, the opportunities are all there. At least by teaching "what we know and can prove" about evolution we are using science to show why this piece of data is being presented as fact. You can look at the study, the tests, and the results and make an informed decision as to your belief in it. But religion... well you just can't do any of that can you. Don't you see. Your views on religion are in there own way extreme. Ok you are not running around waving banners ( are you ) but none the less the pattern is the same as other religions.
I am always annoyed by religion this way. The assumption that any given religion is the truth and that the world needs saving because they are right and we are wrong.

And as far as your comment "Without religion man will cease to function as an intelligent life form." you have to be kidding!! how exactly do you come to this conclusion? As far as I have seen, religion causes more wars, death and persecution than anything in this world, both historically and in present times.
Don't you think your views are a tad extreme?

Wow do I feel misunderstood. I well remember conversations with you about this in the past.

I don't think you can vary how you see religion. So I don't thing talking about religion can do much for you. Lets call it something else.

Chemistry. Lets call it chemistry. What can you do with chemistry? You can make poisons that kill people. You can make crazy drugs that drive people crazy. You can make explosives that can kill every or badly wound them. You could make cheap sugar pills that fooled people into thinking you gave them something amazing.

This is what it is like talking to you about religion. Well, I agree to it all. If this is all that you see in the subject then I understand where you are coming from.

Yet that is not all there is to chemistry. You have pointed out just some of how powerful the subject of chemistry can truly be. Yes, it can be very destructive. But imagine if you understood why it can be so destructive. You could use all that power for something more creative and the world could benefit form it.

So how do you make a powerful poison anyway? First you need powerful ingredients. Stuff that will override the personals immune system so that he can't reject it. So if you really know the chemistry of the body, you can crush nearly anyone's judgment (I mean immune system! oops). Next, you need a system of delivery that can get past the many layers of protection a person would have so that he would not fall pray to your poison.

Next you should remove any cures to the poison so that it can have time to distort and kill. In other words you need the person to not see what is coming.

Lets take a break in this example. Now I know you don't get how this has anything to do with the subject of religion. Or how it mimics how religion has been used. If this is all chemistry had been used for for years then one day it would only have the technology to harm. It would be hard to tell people how chemistry could be used for something other then this twisted use.

All the destruction caused would only be testimony to how powerful the subject really was.

If you really understood the mind, if you really understood the soul the levels of destruction you could cause could rival all that that religion has been able to do.

When people are devastated by a disaster it's very nature means that it will forcibly override the will of many. It is a shame that people are more likely to remember the disaster and pain then joy they had on that day.

But that is not all religion can be used for. It has helped many. When a person was greatly helped beyond the levels that others understand they thought it was an illusion because by it's vary nature it is beyond what they understand or they would have done it too.

Religion like Chemistry can be used for more creative and helpful ends.

You however have been convinced that it was religion that did all the harming. It takes some degree of understanding to see that religion has parts so that you can seem them at work. Like a bomb built to harm others, it has a creator. It has someone that worked on it and made it into what it is. It had someone that went through all the trouble to deliver it to a place where it could do some real destruction. And as happens to many people that make bombs like this, it will likely will blow up in his face.

You see there is a whole subject to religion. But like Chemistry if you never studied it you will never understand what it is capable of. You will never realize you are staring at it in ever area of life.

I don't tell you what religion is, I try to get you to see it is a different light. I don't tell you to believe in Islam. I trust that if you did you would not seek to use it to destructive ends. I trust you have enough judgment to not do something evil with your religion beliefs.

I don't tell you what to believe, just that you should not close the door on religion. I tell you to use judgment with your faith.

So I understand that religion is the art of stupidity in your eyes. But that is just one way it can be used. Not that you need to take my word for it. Just that I would hope you would hear what I have to say.

It may be very self-righteous of me to be so unbelievable a to propose a new way to look at this subject but it is not a crime, nor does it mean I am stupid. In fact, while I would never tell you what your religious beliefs should be, I have learned a bit about it. I saw what the subject consists of and can see why it's many forms occurred. I don't tell people "God is not real" because I know otherwise. Even if I did say it, I would hope people would use good judgment. But there are many "God"s, and all are not real. I don't tell people which to believe in. But I do tell them that no matter which you pick, if you use good judgment you will make (even if only a small) step to a better you. Even if he gets it all wrong, the power of this subject is so great that he will get an improvement out of it.

Maybe he thinks it will make him smarter, well, it wont. Maybe he thinks it can help him make money, well, it won't be why he makes money. You see the true reason it helps him is SOOO INCREDIBLY SIMPLE he will likely never get what it really is. But it will still help him. It can be one of the dimmest recognitions and it will still help him to that dimmest amount. He could say "I don't see any impoverishment". But that is because he is looking at much more complicated things like his wallet, or his emotions, or his health. He is not looking at what is doing all of that bloody looking! He is not examining the thought process that he is using to examine things with! It is am undercut to everything that is him. It can such a small improvement that others can't see a thing different. It can be that small! Like telling a person a simple law of chemistry as his only education on the subject, he may see things a little different but not manifest an observable difference unless you really look hard.

This subject of religion is crude in the extreme. It is unsure if you will get a bomb or a toaster when playing around with it. But we all have to start somewhere. There is much to be known about religion. It is far more powerful then then you realize. Yet it's goal is not to make you into a god or something like that, just to help you have a better day by putting a very real and very powerful factor in this universe on your side.

Why did man rise above the animals? How did he get smart smart enough to use science in such amazing ways? Religion. I think everyone passes right over the missing ingredient that changed man. Show science to an animal and you may make him smarter, but he will never be as creative as man with it. Sure you are told it's our bigger brains or evolution. Yet making a bigger brain on an animal does not make him smarter in the slightest (and that includes man). Evolution does exist, but it did not create man, it obeyed something much more powerful then evolution could ever be.

This post has been edited by ScottMan: Jun 11 2008, 07:35 PM

Why is teaching creationism irresponsible? I think that teaching evolution is irresponsible.

The issue here isn't what they're teaching, but the fact that they're teaching them as FACT, when we must admit that we really don't know how life came about.

I myself am a Raelian, and we believe in Athiest Intelligent Design, where advanced people from another planet created life on earth and they were mistaken for Gods. But even I can admit that to teach it as fact is irresponsible.

Children must be presented with the main theories on how life came about and then it is up to them to decide what they want to believe.

Don't you agree? Or are you biased toward your own theory and think that only that must be taught as fact?

-Josh

Aliens = 'God'
www.rael.org

Ok, I am sorrry but I just cant even begin to pull that last post apart, I must be a poor simple heathen but your analogies with chemistry and toasters do you no justice, but I appreciate what you were trying to do. You are doing what so many fire and brimstone teachers do, take bits and pieces, make comparisons and analogies to things and try to tie it all up as one big powerful conclusion.

The bottom line is this, you have your opinions and beliefs about religion. You have said and I quote. "But there are many "God"s, and all are not real. I don't tell people which to believe in" That is exactly the point I am making. You do tell them. If you bring religion into schools, you tell little kids what to believe. You have an authoritive figure in a learning environment. They do maths and are told 2+2=4, if they say otherwise, they are told they are wrong. They are taught how to spell, they are taught science, all of which they are givin guidance as to what is right and what is wrong. Then comes along religious instruction and bingo, the teacher says " here is what the bible says, here is what god says" You are not seriously telling me that a 6 year old will sit down and pull that apart objectively and make there own decision!! Surely. They will be brainwashed. And what about the other religions, you said in the previous post that there are many gods and not all are real!! Who says? If we let you have your way we would have your faith taught, If I had my way I would have meditation classes and teach Budhism, and all the other religions would want there share of the pie and would object to all the others.

Why I so strongly disagree with you is simple, because like most religious folk, you start with the assumption that your belief is correct and mine is not, so therefore we would be better off if we listened to you.
By not teaching religion, no one gets forced into any belief. You are free to be Christian, I am free to be Buddhist, and everyone else is free to be what they choose, no one gets brainwashed. I just cant understand how you can't see this.

Good grief, I am all for religious tolerance, but you can't seriously expect anyone to take that nutter seriously. I mean, this is the man that said that we should only be allowed to vote if our IQ is high enough. This is the bloke who says he was taken up by aliens and now has the truth to all.
We are meant to be respectful of all religions here, and I try, but as far as I am concerned, the Ralien.....movement is nothing more than a cult with a nutter at its head.

This post has been edited by Dundee: Jun 12 2008, 12:23 AM

lol, I am just that kind of guy. Perhaps a bit forceful. Passion is healthy.


You make a good point.


I see your point. But I dislike the reference to my "faith". I don't have any nor need any "faith".


I see that I could have come across condescending. but why sell an idea short for lack of guts at offending someone? But believe it or not I respect your beliefs too. I am not telling what your or anyone else beliefs should be. Even when I reference a "unreal God" I am referring to one that says he's short and one that says he tall, they can't both be right can they? Maybe they can... Anyway, if I am not trying to tell you or anyone else what religious faith they should have, then what am talking about?

I am just trying to establish a new way of looking at religion as a whole. I don't quote you and then say "Well, you see, your wrong about that" because I am not trying to crush what you are saying, clearly your intelligent enough to make good points. The introduction of religion to schools as it is would be loaded with problems and not a good idea. But what if that was not what said? I am using words, but not the meanings. Well, you don't get what I am talking about I guess. Fair enough.


But I do. I get it alright. It would be a calamity. The I spent half of the first post and the entire second post proposing what I was talking about. Because totally agree with you. I was hoping you would understand me too.

You mention how I sound like many a religious person drawing examples and tieing it up with fire and brimstone. First off that is hilarious! Sure makes me laugh! Anyway, but the reason I did it is that English is flawed. Well, nearly every language has this flaw. It is that if you talk about something the language has no words for, your in trouble.

I don't think you are stupid, but I do think that what I have to say is new to you. I don't think you have ever heard it before and I think what I am trying to say is an alien concept to you. I had my fun with over the top wording but I want you to know I apologize for being condescending. I talked of chemistry because you know what religion is all about. I am trying to get around it. It would be easier if I didn't call it religion, but due to what I know, in the end, it is religion. but not by any standard you are aware of.

Behind every language are ideas, concepts. You can talk about something not directly related to the topic because if you do it right, you can barrow the concept from a place where it already exists. And on the subject of religion, there are very few concepts in the English language. I am afraid I can't have a direct conversation because there are no direct words for what I have to say. Words like soul, ghost, spirit, astral body and so on all have invalid meanings because they refer things I am not talking about. The way I see it, energy exists independent of... the soul. So if it glows, it's not you. You don't glow. But if you are healthy, you may produce an effect in your vicinity that looks like a glow. The difference being like holding onto a lamp, the lamp is not you. But you have it with you. (see the example?)

Anyway, that is all.

I see some of where you are comeing from, I guess on much of it though we will have to agree to disagree

This post has been edited by Dundee: Jun 12 2008, 04:26 AM

Evolution is fact. Given the rules of genetic inheritance, and variable survivability of organisms based upon their genetic inheritance, evolution is mathematically inevitable. The modern synthesis of Darwinism uses statistical models to predict the genetic change of organisms decades a